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ZoomsHobbies . HeliHobby . Ron’s HeliProz South

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Main Discussion > Best 3D rotorhead available today!
 
 
Wayne Mann
Senior Heliman
Location: United States of America

I'm sorry for the delay as I had a contest in Tampa FL this weekend. I came back from Tampa hoping to find a thread still going and revolving around rotorheads. Instead I find another Virus or Troll running through what could have been a fun and good discussion.

Nothing I said was demeaning or meant in that context. He made a bold statement when he said "The best rotorhead available today". Since he didn't say for what type of flying it was the best for someone could get the idea that it was the best rotorhead available for every kind of flying. A "qualified" or "trusted" opinion is usually based on research or a lot of experience in the field to which the opinion is given, which in the case would mean that Chris had flown and tested every rotorhead on the market before announcing his opinion on an open forum. An opinion without anything to back it up is worth just about as much as a check with no funds in the bank to secure it. Someone may go out an buy something because someone on this forum said that it was the best product available and upon using the product may discover that the highly recommended product isn't as good as the one they already had. He should have said "Wow, look at this new rotorhead". I got to fly one of these and it was very impressive and very adjustable.

Just a little back ground on me and why I think I'm qualified to give my opinions about rotorheads on this forum when the topic comes up. In 94 Ted Schoonard who at the time was the chief designer at Miniature decided to develop a new F3C competition rotorhead. I was told to acquire some pieces, do all the testing that I felt was needed and then give him my findings. I told Ted what I thought would be the best choice for the type of rotorhead. I also came up with a new way for acquiring the amount of flybar authority that we wanted without giving up any direct steering or Bell input. Ted designed the rotorhead and put it into production. In 95, the very next year a guy most of you know who goes by the name Cliff Hiatt won the World Championships in Kasaoka Japan with that rotorhead and I finished in third with it. So I think that qualifies "me" to give "my" opinions on rotorheads on this forum. There are a LOT of F3C guys from around the world that read and keep up with certain technical discussions on this forum.

Contrary to your belief, neither this forum or this planet revolves around 3D. Do "you" actually believe that Curtis would give up all of his National titles and his 3, count em THREE World Championship titles for all the 3D titles in the world? Do you think that Scott Gray would give up his US Nationals title he won three years ago and the second place title he won at the Worlds in Spain last year for all the 3D titles? I DON'T THINK SO. It's hard to make my answer to those two questions sound just right in print, but do feel free to ask them when you see either of them at the Jamboree this year.

As for you, what qualifies you or gives you the right to come on this thread and and twist everything around that I say to try and make me look bad? I have no less than two dozen e-mails and personal messages regarding your post and two from people who say they know you fairly well and to not even waste my time replying to your post as your post qualifies you to be named chief Troll. If you come to the IRCHA Jamboree this year please come up and introduce yourself as I feel pretty sure that I will get a big kick out of meeting you. It might just be the highlight of my trip to the Jamboree this year.

As for Augusto, I wasn't being condescending to him in any way. I simply asked the same question that many other people asked. Nobody wants to have to go out and buy another helicopter then buy all of his upgrades. They would much rather just buy the whole kit. Now if someone crashed a helicopter that will work with Augusto's upgrades that's a different story.

Large rubber dampers don't get destroyed in flight like small o-rings do. Kyosho has 90 durometer dampers which are like using aluminum dampers. They range from 50 to 90 durometer. It's not my fault if the manufacture doesn't provide stiffer dampers for 3D applications.

No I don't piroflip my Calibers, but I have seen it done in Japan, right on the deck with a Caliber 90 at nearly the same speed that Alan does, with nearly a one to one flybar relationship and a belt drive tail. So I guess you can have stability, fast cyclics and a easy to work on tail drive system all in one package. WOW

People on this forum always wonder why none of the top guys will come on here and spend time trying to help. Well now you know, it's because of Trolls like you that come on here and rip into them trying to look like the big dog.

Two of the paragraphs in this section have been deleted by me, WM.

And Chris if I hurt your feelings or just rubbed you in the wrong way, I apologize as it wasn't my intention. I just would like for people to read what they are "about" to post and try to listen to how it's going to come across to other people who will be reading it in case it needs editing prior to posting. I thought this was going to turn into discussion about rotorheads and different designs and it probably would have, but as usually there always seems to be a bad egg in every bunch.


Wayne
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Chopper
Key Veteran
Location: Stow,Oh- oops, I mean St Louis, nope Stow again

Wow.

Hi Wayne.

Hi Gordie.

Hi Augusto.

Hi Pete.

The Avant is being designed to be the best 3D heli on the market. It is not going after the FAI market. The FAI market would be very different. FAI would favor higher flybar ratios and different dampening, absolutely.

The current Avant conversions use the Hirobo heads. The Hirobo heads are a compromise between the FAI flying and 3D flying. When you push them REAL hard in 3D, they will exhibit some tracking problems. The new EVO head is better. The new Avant head is really awesome....for 3D. Although it could be used for FAI, I would prefer the Imperio head for FAI. :-)

In a decade of FAI flying, I never once heard a public argument or back biting between pilots. Maybe a competitive elbow to the ribs, but everyone had a beer later and would offer parts across heli line because they are usually on the same team for a different sponsor, like Futaba, or Cool power, or something. If I, or you were at a contest and needed help, ALL of these top pilots would give you help, even with a different model. The help would be good help, with the intent to help YOU fly better.

I truly believe the questions here from the well known pilots are honest with no malice intended. Bud, I don't know you, but I believe a little less caffeine would be in order.

If I wanted to get back into FAI, I would be buying Wayne beers to get him to open up on his wealth of knowledge. His set up may or may not tune to my reflexes, but it sure would fly straight.

The Avant head will prove it’s worth this year. It will show up in the top places at the XFC, and just look at the splash it made in Vegas. The machine had instant converts when people flew it. When you fly the Avant, you will see just how good the heli gets around. You keep pressing harder and the heli still does exactly everything you ask of it. There are other good heads out on the market too, but right now the Avant head is the shiniest, ;-) , and brother, do they fly well!

Paul Soha is a Futaba Team Pilot , Aurora Team Pilot, Wildcat Team Pilot, SAB blades
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Simon9
Heliman
Location: NRW- Germany

Best rotorhead available today!

DIAMONT

you can see him in MY GALLERY.

Simon
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Chopper
Key Veteran
Location: Stow,Oh- oops, I mean St Louis, nope Stow again

Simon........WOW! Major WOW. Offset pivot fly bar.....WOW!

Please send me one for testing.....He he.

Paul Soha is a Futaba Team Pilot , Aurora Team Pilot, Wildcat Team Pilot, SAB blades
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Simon9
Heliman
Location: NRW- Germany

Chopper....,

if I send you one I`m

and you are
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

No hard feelings Wayne, I enjoy gathering information from your vast experiences. I should've clarified in my topic that I thought it was best for 3D, so I just changed that.

Chris
Xero G

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo
03-06-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
damaen
Senior Heliman
Location: Umeå, Sweden

That Diamont is really different, what machine is it? Where can I read and see more of it?



Henrik
03-06-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
hhart
Senior Heliman
Location: San Jose, CA

Damaen,

The Diamont has the control system similar to System 88 of Robbe. What is intriguing about the head is the flybar changes its own phasing (mechanically) by the movement of the collective, possibly w/ the movement of cyclic too.... interesting.

...Pictures tell 1000 words...

hhart
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Simon9
Heliman
Location: NRW- Germany

www.mbs-schulz.de is the producer.

The price is now 1699,- EUR with tax.

The regulare price in few month is 1999,- EUR with tax.

This Helicopter is in ARF.

After Order 4-6 weeks. (I waited 3 weeks)

The flying bar goes for.- and backward by steering ELE and ALE.

(see picture in my gallerie)

The rotor brake goes up and down.

The Servo in front is the ELE-Servo.

The other 2 Servos are Pitch and Ale.(transmitter swash elec.H2)

Main shaft 12mm.

Gear 1:8

High 380mm

Long with out boddy 1310mm

Weight 4.3 Kg

For 700mm blades

Engine 91

Now I hope someone can translate.

Dieser Helicopter fliegt genauer präzieser agieler wendiger

as anyone else.

Eckige Überschläge ohne aussteuern.

Simon
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
damaen
Senior Heliman
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Thanks, found some photos on that site...



Henrik
03-06-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AugustorrAdvertiser - Location: San Diego, CA -
Cerveza,

Even though I agree with most of the technical things you posted except for one that I will debate below I think the tone should have been different. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder against FAI in general but I don't think there is need for controversy. Maybe a few less cervezas next time you post.

You were saying that the tendency is to limit flybar authority and that's certainly the tendency for 3D flying but we are not trying to limit that on our programable head. You are also saying that everyone is trying to go away from the 0.7 ratios but our design philosophy is why limit the options and why go away for anything? Let people decide how they want to fly.

In the programable head you have a wide range of flybar ratio adjustability. Far from trying to go away from those numbers we actually cover them. The programable head covers a range from 0.797 (excellent for FAI virtually 0.8) to 0.366 (eye popping smackdown 3D) and this is one of the reasons why Paul Soha who is a very experienced competition FAI pilot said the head while being unmatched for 3D is also very good for FAI.


Wayne,

In your post you mentioned that adjusting the delta offset is limited by the binding between the rod coming from the swashplate up to the mixing arm and the flybar cage. That would be the case if we didn't take care of the problem like we did. In our head the mixing arm has a longer arm that allows you to flip the arm to extend the reach and clear binding. We also took care of the problem by designing it so that you could flip the side of the cage you use and use an inner ball instead ot the outer ball in the flybar cage or simply replace it by one of the shorter balls if needed.

Here's an illustration of what you meant showing how an incorrect extreme delta installation ends up in binding:



Incorrect extreme delta installation


Here's how you should assemble it to prevent that binding when using extreme delta:



Correct extreme delta installation



Since we are in the subject of "how should be all post" I think that posts like this "I can learn and become as efficient at 3D as your guy is at 3D right now in less time than it took him" are probably the reason Cerveza has a chip on his shoulder. You don't know how long it took Chris Tylo to be as proficient as he is and your post could also be taken as implying that you think high level of proficiency in 3D is a pretty simple discipline to learn when compared to FAI. That would be offensive to people like him or simply that can give the appearance that you're being arrogant. Maybe you need to prove him wrong and learn to fly 3D at the Szabos level in a very short time and win a few 3D competitions hehehe


Also about blatant statements a post like this "Nobody wants to have to go out and buy another helicopter then buy all of his upgrades" fall in the same category as your complain about making blatant posts. Judging from the incredible success in sales for the Avant it's fair to say that the word "Nobody" is not the right word to use in that statement.

Other that that everything is good and the weather is nice for some good flying

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate
03-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Wayne Mann
Senior Heliman
Location: United States of America

Hi Augusto,

For 3D and most applications your rotorhead is not limited in it's adjustable range for Delta in either directions. Mostly because in 3D considering how tight most guys run the damping on the rotorhead delta in either direction will have very little effect. For delta in either direction to work the axle has to be able to move a reasonable amount. Delta in either direction applies tremendous forces back to the servo gear train and related components. The variables here are how tight is the dampen and how much delta is being used. With soft dampers like I use combined with extreme degrees of uncorrecting delta (over 20mm of offset) applies unbelievable amounts of pressure back to the servos. If I were to max out my swash plate throws like a 3D guy would and use light 3D type paddles and try doing some medium stress level type 3D maneuvers I have no doubt that I could rip my servos apart during flight with either type of delta. I would never reccomend using delta for extreme 3D type flying for these reasons. Using very hard dampers and a tight axle would be a much better choice and far less stressful on your radio gear.

In the following example I am ONLY refering to what happens when uncorrecting delta is used on bigger models with fairly stable rotor systems. Once you get into small plastic stuff with mid line radio gear all bets are off. Then things do not work backwards, but instead the rotorhead needs help from correcting delta to keep the rotor blades tracking.

In a nut shell when the axle is softly dampened and uncorrecting delta is used this is what happens: lets say a gust of wind hits the model and tries to make the body pitch nose up or nose down depending on the direction from which the wind hit the model. The uncorrecting delta uses a push-pull system going through the swash plate back to the servos to push and pull the body back in line with the rotor head. Now think about this carefully and consider just how much force is being applied back to the servos when high amounts of delta is being used.

What is the bennifit of using uncorrecting delta in a scale model helicopter or a F3C type of helicopter? This type of delta reduces the amount of trim change that happens when a gust of wind or a steady wind hits the model from different angles. I get this question so many times: how can I make my model stop trying to take off and try to go into forward flight when the wind is hitting it from the right side and why does it want to back up when the wind hits it from the left side. We are assuming a clockwise rotating rotor here in this example as the effects of the wind would be backwards for a counter clockwise rotating rotor. Some upper end heads from Japan come with correcting delta and when used with softer dampers the rotor want to nod fore and aft in windy weather. This happens because when the wind hits the body and trys and does make the body or mechanics move out of plain with the rotorhead this delta pulls the body out of plain even further to the point where it bounces back off of the dampers.

Using soft dampers and uncorrecting delta offsets of around 35m I can make a properly balanced model litterly sit still in windy conditions and suffer NO trim changes when being hit with winds from different angles. Unfortunately a rotorhead set up this way is a ticking time bomb in low rotor speed situations. For the delta to work it's magic it requires a minimal amount of head speed to retain stability in the rotor disk. If the head speed falls below a certain rpm relative to the head set up it will go into an oscillation which will get worse until it boom strikes or stops spinning completely. I'll bet that sounds nasty, trust me it sucks as I have had it happen two times.

When you use hard dampers the body or mechanics will stay in parallel with the rotorhead, but it trim changes something terrible. It's funny to me that uncorrecting delta and hard dampers are effectively doing the same thing by keeping the mechanics or body in cink with the rotorhead, but the down side of hard dampers is that you have to suffer with trim changes.

If the Troll in this thread has a chip on his shoulder regarding me it's not from any bragging or anything that I have said in the past as I just don't do that, unless once again he took something I said somewhere else and twisted it around between what few brain cells that seem to be operational. But for the sake of whatever I will remove all of the unimportant stuff in that post shortly. But I will say this: hovering a helicopter in gusty winds over specific targets while moving the helicopter around and doing this to high levels of profficency is much harder and will take way more time to become an expert at than learning any 3D maneuver. This are not exagerated or ego based claims, it just simple facts. Ask any top 3D guy that is also one of the top pilots in F3C which is harder, doing 3D maneuvers out in front of yourself with no precise fixed area in which you have to keep the model or competing at the top level in F3C. The toughest thing in 3D and one of the main things that keeps me out of this arena is the simple fact that you have to keep comming up with new stuff and having to coreograph it to music. For someone who only does 3D or doesn't compete at a medium to high level in F3C to make the statement that 3D is as hard as F3C is another unfounded, unsupported by fact or research OPINION that doesn't hold water. I know that sounds offensive and I'm sure it hurts some peoples feelings, but again it's the simple facts that I won't argue beyond this post.

We have some very talented 3D guys that I have seen fly like Jason and Alan and a few others that have the smoothness skills to be a top F3C pilot and potentially stand on the podium at a World Championships one day. But for unkown reasons these guys won't jump in the water and learn to swim with the exception of Alan and Danny who do compete at the Nations every year.

Maybe this post will make some people think about some things in a different light. Why is it that very few people in this country, given the number of helicopter pilots in the US, want to compete in contests as opposed to just flying around? What is missing in the contest arena that keeps you 3D guys from competing and working towards a specific goal, like making and being a part of the US F3C team? What is missing? I always thought that Americans were competitive by nature, for the most part, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Anyone care to shed some light on these questions?

I'm happy for your success with your products mainly because I want to see more manufactures of R/C helicopters here in the US. But you started with small upgrades for certain helicopters and have worked your way up to the point where you are now with an almost obvious destination in mind, at least obvious to some of us. In the beginning you didn't have enough pieces of the puzzle for someone to make the mental leap...(hey where's the whole kit), but now you are to a point where it is only LOGICAL for someone to make that leap of faith and ask when can we likely expect to see a whole kit? Drum roll please.... The drum roll thing is just an attempt at humor, don't take it out of context and don't feel like you need to answer the question.

In a little while I am going to post some more stuff about full scale rotorheads and rotorheads in general and see what some of you have to say about some of my thoughts on this subject. Maybe Stephen Bell and I can only wish that my good friend James Wang, people who have a lot more experience with full scall helicopter design, will jump in on what I am going to say and give their QUALIFIED opinions.

This post was done in a hurry so there is probably some technical errors here and there. I didn't want anybody to get the impression that I have been hitting the sause.


Wayne Mann
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Augusto
rrAdvertiser
Location: San Diego, CA

Yeah I agree. That is a fact that escapes most people the fact that dampening durometer determines the amount of deflection under a certain load and therefore directly affects how much deflection from delta is applied as a result.

In my case I use softer dampeners and less delta to compensate and I get fantastic pitch and cyclics response as well as amazing autoing. The trick is to have the ability to set it up to your liking.

Regards the why there is not that much interest in competition I think it's like formula one and Nascar. We in America like the excitement of fast cars daredeviling and that kind of stuff more than the endurance and technique.

I think if they did a 3D competition at the nats then you would see more people involved in competition. Americans are more free spirited and don't like too much structure in their hobbies. Unlike us japanese feel uneasy without structure and guidelines.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Pete Niotis
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Haven MI, USA

..
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Wayne Mann
Senior Heliman
Location: United States of America

I would like to add some more thoughts on rotorhead designs.

In full scale helicopters which are for the most part flybarless designs there exists some flight characteristics that you would think wouldn't exist or at least by now would have been fixed by design changes. For example in full scale helicopters and models with flybarless rotorheads as you transition into forward flight you have to hold more and more forward cyclic as you go faster. You can only go as fast as allowed by several factors, but running out of forward cyclic is one of the main reasons. Once you go too far you run into retreating blade stall, the helicopter flips over nose first and to my knowledge no test pilots have ever survived this cataclysmic event. I was told by someone here that ALL helicopters pitch nose up when transitioning into forward flight and continue to do so as forward speed builds. This is simply not the case as my models have no such tendencies. My swash plates are perfectly level fore and aft through out the entire collective range. They hover hands off in calm conditions with no trim and they will fly hands off at any speed right side up or inverted with no trim on fore and aft. I would be very curious to know why full scale helicopters are not designed to have these same flight characteristics. They would still have the same speed limitations due to retreating blade stall, but they would fly a lot easier, they would be in trim all the time unless cargo loads weren't placed right.

What I find interesting about this is the fact that they don't use flybars to fix a lot of problems like having to use more and more forward cyclic the faster you go., especially on two blade systems. They (full scale) helicopter designers use SAS systems which are basically gyros for cyclics to stabilize everything. I guess electronic stabilization in full scale is cheaper to build and maintain than mechanical flybar systems. I know for multi blade, heavy lifting systems it would be way too complicated to have a flybar system. Maybe they just want all helicopters to be roughly the same with regards to control and stability systems.

Does anybody here that maybe has some background with full scale helicopters know why full scale machines are designed this way when they could be designed to not have these tendencies?

Someone posted on the forum somewhere that in their opinion flybars on models would soon be replaced by SAS systems. I may be wrong, but I doubt that this will happen as SAS systems or at least the ones that would be used for models would be like adding gyros to cyclic which would only dampen out the pitching tendencies and would not have the great tracking in forward flight that we have now with flybars.

Inquiring minds want to know


Wayne Mann
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

On the chinooks, we did have a speed trim actuator, that as forward speed increased, this actuator extended, which relieved the pilot from having to push his cyclic to the chin bubble to do 170 knots.

I don't remember specifics (embarrased) on how it worked, but it is in there.

The old "C" models had SAS(stability augmentation system), the newer models ("D" and "E" ) have AFCS(Advance Flight Control System). The latest may have something else by now. (I feel really old right now....)

Chris Bergen
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Augusto
rrAdvertiser
Location: San Diego, CA

"because I want to see more manufactures of R/C helicopters here in the US."

Amen to that. God knows that having only Avant and Bergen as the only manufacturers that build their helis in the USA is not enough. We need to try bringing manufacturing back into the USA and stop outsourcing our future elsewhere.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

I'm a die-hard Raptor fan, partly because my R50 is my first heli (1st RC of any kind) and partly because it flies so well. I'll always own an R50, although its role will evolve as my fleet grows.

That said, I can add with confidence that my next purchase will be either an Avant or Bergen, a 90-sized, partly because both are made in the USA but mostly because they fly so well and are so light.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

3D NATS

Hello Augusto,
Several years ago, we experimented with a NATS 3D event. It was heavily advertised and promoted (maybe not in the correct places, I don't remember as I was not involved). They rented a BIG stereo system and several guys flew in it including Paul if I recall correctly. It was fun to watch but there were minimal entrants and even fewer the next year so it was cancelled.
Currently there is a proposal for an FAI 3D event (F3N?) but even then we have not seen the guys stepping up to participate as I have never even seen that event mentioned in the US but at our fun flies it is not uncommon to see 80-150 guys just flying their butt off with no fear and laying the smack down but mention "3D contest" and they seem to really shy away. We have had extensive discussions about this and cannot come to a consensus as to what and why that happens. The exception seems to be the XFC and I suspect that's because it is by invitation and there is $$ involved as well as prestige.
There is a current AMA proposal for a combined helicopter/airplane, outdoor/indoor event that would be REALLY neat but it is just in the proposal stage right now and has not been tested to my knowlege, though I could be wrong. I think Curtis and Andrew Jeski were involved there but I do not have details available.
If you have any really good innovative ideas to attract guys and/or ideas for events and event promotion, we are always looking for new and better ways to do stuff.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
CJames
Elite Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Quote 
Amen to that. God knows that having only Avant and Bergen as the only manufacturers that build their helis in the USA is not enough. We need to try bringing manufacturing back into the USA and stop outsourcing our future elsewhere.


Pretty weak slam on MA Augusto?
So Augusto, just where do you get your bearings for your upgrades?
Kinda the kettle calling the pot black aint it?
All your upgrades are for an overseas heli, which encourages people to buy a hirobo,

Now, if you made that head for the Bergan turbine....
03-07-2006 Over year old.
 
 
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