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e-New & Emerging Electrics > EP 400 Build Thread
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Dave,

Shifting the tail to the boom has not changed the performance of the tail on mine. I too get the wag under hard collective loading if the gain is set high. On the 401, with a 9650 servo on the 3rd hole using a 6 star wheel I am using 42% gain. The tail is very positive and precise however it will wag under a hard climbout or flip. This is exactly the same gain and setup I used before with the servo mounted to the frame and the wheel through the frame. To eliminate the wag under hard load I need to reduce the gain to around 30. This is OK but it feels a little soft. I am used to flying the 90 which has a very precise tail no matter what the gain however I do not do 3D with it. The noticable improvement is the tail pitch control of the XP. The new pitch slider is virtually slop free now due to the redesign. It uses 2 radial bearings therefore it has twice the surface area to keep from twisting under load on the shaft.
If you buy CA2046,CA2049,CA2050,CA2059,CA2045 and BRG022 you will get all 4 mixing arms for the head, the new mixing base and the bushings, the tail slider and bearings. Thise items will significantly reduce the slop in the control system.

Dwight
12-01-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Qooo
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

What I did for the tail wag is make my throttle curve to 100% everywhere. That is the only method I can figure it out so far.

I am glad you can get the metal swashplate. They do not sell upgrade parts in Hong Kong.

Luckily it is not selling high price in Hong Kong.

DX7 - FREYA EVO90 SWM - LEPTON EX - T600E - Thinking 9303 2.4G
12-01-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Qooo,

I do run 100% when doing 3D and it still will wag at higher settings. I think it could be flexing or vibration. I have not experimented with changing the position or the tape because it is not that important to me for how well the tail holds. What gyro, servo, arm and gain do you use?

Dwight
12-01-2006 Over year old.
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

If you wanted to upgrade an existing EP400 to the EP400XP, here's a list of what you'd need, and the list price as found on the Kyosho America website.

Part NO Qty Cost Total Description
BRG020O 2 $0.00 $0.00 4x8x2 Open Bearing
BRG022 1 $8.99 $8.99 6x10x3 Ball Bearing
CA2007B 1 $3.99 $3.99 Flybar, Plated
CA2045 1 $3.99 $3.99 Tail Plastic Parts
CA2046 1 $4.99 $4.99 Plastic Parts (XP)
CA2047 1 $9.99 $9.99 MR Hub
CA2048 1 $7.99 $7.99 Seesaw (XP)
CA2049 1 $1.99 $1.99 XP Collar Set
CA2050 1 $3.99 $3.99 Lever Boss Set
CA2051 1 $26.99 $26.99 Side Frame (L)
CA2052 1 $25.99 $25.99 Side Frame (R)
CA2053 1 $8.99 $8.99 Battery Plate
CA2054 1 $5.99 $5.99 Pitch Slide Ring
CA2055 1 $1.99 $1.99 Cross Member
CA2056 1 $2.99 $2.99 TR Hub
CA2057 1 $6.99 $6.99 Oval Head Linkage Ball
CA2058 1 $5.99 $5.99 Linkage Rod Set (XP)
CA2059 1 $1.99 $1.99 Tail Slide Bushing (XP)
CA2060 1 $2.99 $2.99 Tail Linkage Rod (XP)
CA2061 1 $41.99 $41.99 Swashplate
EH20A 2 $5.99 $11.98 Rod End (M)
EH45A 1 $5.99 $5.99 Rod End (S)
ORG04 1 $4.00 $4.00 O-Ring
Z8017 2 $7.99 $15.98 PH Linkage Ball
TOTAL 216.76

That's about $60 short of just buying an XP kit.

Of course, you could whack about $60 by not buying the two side frames, the battery tray or the cross members for it. That would drop the upgrade cost to about $157. Drop the aluminum swashplate, the upgrade would go for about $115, a little less than half the street price of an XP kit. At $115, I'm almost tempted to do an upgrade.

I checked the parts listing over at RC Heliworks...looks like Chris can save you quite a few $$$ on the big-ticket items like the side frames and the swashplate. Buying parts from RC Heliworks would drop that $216 total down below the $200 mark.

That chart looked pretty good till I hit the "submit" button. Seems that RR strips out extra spaces that can be used to line stuff up. I wish it wouldn't do that.

Dave
12-03-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Qooo
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

Dwight,

I am using 401 + Hitec56HB. The gain is set to 75%.
There is a new Futaba digital servo(S3154) which is faster than S9650. Flyers in Hong Kong had already tested it and had highly recommended with 401.

See the Youtube movie ....
TRex450SE + 401 + Futaba Digital Servo S3154

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhOyOPuaDGU&eurl=

DX7 - FREYA EVO90 SWM - LEPTON EX - T600E - Thinking 9303 2.4G
12-03-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

I have the 3154 on aileron, elevator and pitch but not tail. I saw it was faster but did not try it yet. They work very well!

Dwight
12-03-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Qooo
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

I am using JR382 on aileron & elevator, Hitec 65MG for pitch and Hitec 56HB for tail but ... JR382 is very very slow ... just the size fits in... if Hitec 65MG can fit in aileron & elevator, I will change it but it doesn't.

At the moment, I like Hitec 65MG the most. I use it on my TRex450SE everywhere & tail with 401 + 56HB.

DX7 - FREYA EVO90 SWM - LEPTON EX - T600E - Thinking 9303 2.4G
12-04-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

I'm upgrading my EP400 to an EP400XP at the moment. I purchased a boatload of parts from Chris at RC Heliworks and started the conversion a few days ago.

I've encountered a few problems along the way, one of them being that the Hitec HS56 servo runs into the new collective pitch lever. I built a couple of shims to fix that problem.

I've also run into a problem with the shanks of the plastic ball links up on the end of the washout levers binding on the washout base. My stash of T-Rex parts solved this problem. Four T-Rex plastic links and two short threaded rods 12.6 mm long from the T-Rex head linkage parts, and I have two new pushrods on the head. The T-Rex links are very thin and the interference between the links and the washout base is now gone. The new collective system is nice and slop free, and I think the head controls will be tight and responsive now.

I've also found that the threads on the ends of the new TR pushrod are too small to work with the EH45A plastic ball links. Instead of threading onto the links, the pushrod simply presses into the link. I need to get a new pushrod with the correct threads.

Pictures of the conversion progress are in my gallery, and more will come, as well as a build and flying report when I get the chance.

BTW -- in my shopping list above, I mentioned some BRG020O bearings. You need four of these, and currently Kyosho has none. They are 4 x 8 x 2 open, flangeless bearings. Boca Bearings has them in stock, a set of four will set you back about $28.00.

Also, if you go the upgrade route, you need four 2 x 6 and two 2 x 10 binding head self-tapping screws to assemble the new washout links and arms. Again, Kyosho currently doesn't have these. Dwight Schilling is working with the factory and Kyosho America to get these parts in stock in the states. In the meantime, I used some 2 x 6 and 2 x 10 mm socket head cap screws from the LHS and they work just fine.

As an aside -- this past fall I've had lots of tail wag going on. No matter what I did, I couldn't fix it. As I tore the TR apart for the upgrade, I discovered that the four stock TR grip bearings from the original EP400 kit have gone notchy on me. I think as I replace these with the new TR hub and those BRG020O equivalent bearings, the wags ought to be a thing of the past.

I'll keep you all posted as the build goes along.

Dave
12-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Dave,

I installed the new S3154 Futaba Digital servo on the tail and the wags are gone. I also had them and they would go away at about 30 percent gain but anything above that would cause an occasional wag until about 40 percent at which time it was present all the time. Now I am running 45 percent and no wag. The tail is better than it has ever been for hold and performance. The bearings might contribute but the wag is likely still there with the new bearings and tail hub as mine was even brand new. The new system is far more precise but for some reason the wag still shows up under hard acceleration.......until now (S3154).

Dwight
12-17-2006 Over year old.
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

OK -- the conversion is getting close to being complete. I'm waiting for a few parts to show up so I can finish the job. Here's a few pictures of the newly converted machine:



A few construction comments go here:

First, with the new collective pitch slider, not all micro servos will fit in the frame and allow the heli to fly. I re-used my Hitec HS-56 servos only to find that the HS-56 is too tall from the top of the servo case to the top surface of the mounting tabs. The servo sticks into the side frames too far and runs smack-dab into the new collective lever. Bummer. Other, shorter servos should work just fine. I fixed my problem by making up a couple of shims for the side frame to move the servo outward:

The interference can be seen here:



Two 1.3 mm thick shims can be seen here:



The clearance can now be seen here:



The mounted HS-56 servo can be seen here:



OK. Next problem. The new head has all balls and plastic links, and should be smooth as a baby's bottom in operation. Well, not until you do a minor modification. The shank of the plastic links is just too big in diameter to provide adequate clearance between the ball link on the end of the washout lever and the washout base. As you move the collective up and down, the shanks of the links bind rather severely on the washout base, making that shiny new collective mechanism work like crap. The solution came out of my (ugh!) Align T-Rex parts. I made up two new pushrods for the head using four of the Align plastic links (very skinny, not fat like the Kyosho links) and two 12.6 mm long threaded rods from a T-Rex head linkage set. You can see the new links and pushrods in this picture, going from the end of the washout lever up to the pitch mixing levers:



With those links in place, the collective is buttery-smooth, positive, and has absolutely no slop anywhere. Bravo Kyosho (just make it so I don't have to use T-Rex parts in the future....).

The new TR hub is a monster improvement over the original hub. The new hub now has a couple of shanks on which the TR grip bearings fit:



In the original TR hub, the grip bearings were supported by the cap screw that also held the grip in place. Now, the new bearings (and you need the new BRG020O parts for this new hub) fit on that shank. The bolt that holds the grips in place simply does that, it no longer supports the bearings as well. Much more like the feathering spindle arrangement. I couldn't find the needed bearings at RC Heliworks (Chris knows about this, as well as the solution), or at Kyosho America (Dwight knows about this, is working on it, and also knows my solution). My solution? I bought a set of four 4 x 8 x 2 mm open, flangeless bearings from Boca Bearings. A set of four (I happened to get stainless races and ceramic balls) set me back about $28. That's what the list price would be on the same parts from Kyosho. The new bearings ought to be here in a couple more days. Then I can finish the assembly.

The XP has a new TR bellcrank, as well. Nicely supported by bushings, using a steel ball instead of a pin to move the slider back and forth. Again, buttery-smooth in operation.



One more Uh-Oh, however. I tried to put the plastic ball link ends on my new TR pushrod. To my dismay, the threaded portion of the rod I purchased happens to be too small in diameter. Instead of threading neatly into the shank of the plastic links, the rod simply plugs into the hole! This is a manufacturing defect. I've let Chris at RC Heliworks know, as well as Dwight. Between the two of them, I hope to not only get a better part, but to get the stock of bad parts purged before many others end up with a useless part. In the meantime, I've contemplated either using CA or JB Weld to make up the pushrod so I can finish the heli when those bearings arrive.

Here's a shot of the parts I got from RC Heliworks for the upgrade:



A shot before starting the conversion:



Part-way through dismantling the old...


And in with the new:



And a close-up of the new head and swashplate:



I should have this conversion completed this week sometime, and maybe be able to get out and at least hover and fly in my driveway. I'll let you know more about performance as I get a chance to fly it.

Overall, my impression of the XP is that Kyosho has really listened to its customers. All of the complaints about the original EP400 I listed in this thread about a year ago have been addressed in the XP design, and the implementation has been carried out very well. A couple of places where Kyosho might have done a little more homework is in the fit of the popular micro servos (that interference with the collective lever) and the fit of the plastic ball links on the end of the washout levers (more clearance needed, or different, thinner links in that location). A manufacturing defect (incorrectly threaded TR pushrod) needs to be fixed, and stock purged of the bad parts.

Kyosho America needs to stock a few more parts (and make them available to shops like RC Heliworks) to support the XP -- particularly 2 x 6 and 2 x 10 binding head, self-tapping screws and the 4 x 8 x 2 open, flangeless bearings. Dwight is aware of these parts shortages, and is working with Kyosho to get them in stock state side.

Stay tuned for flying updates as they come available.

Dave
12-18-2006 Over year old.
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

The bearings from Boca arrived yesterday. And how did I solve the TR pushrod problem? Another dive into my T-Rex spare parts, two plastic ball links and voila -- the conversion is complete.

The Main Rotor system and the new tail rotor system are silky smooth. NO binding, no slop, nearly perfect.

I'm finishing up the radio installation, and anticipating the first flight, even if it is just a hover in the driveway after dark!

Dave
12-19-2006 Over year old.
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Good news, bad news.

I finished the XP coversion. Good news.

I spent about five minutes in my driveway, in the light of the front porch lights, short sleeves, about 25 degrees outside. Hovering, not doing much other than making sure the heli was still going to fly!

At the end of the five minute flight, I went back into the warmth of the basement shop, plugged the LiPo back in to top it off, cleaned up the workbench a bit.

Then -- with the heli sitting on the bench, I grabbed the flybar. BAD news. It was tight. Real tight. The seesaw was nearly bound up. I have no idea how the heli flew, responded and stayed in one piece.

Dismantle the head, going step-by-step to find out what's stuck. The answer ... Page 42 of the XP build manual, center of the page, part number CA2048 (callout number 14) -- the Seesaw Pin. This is the pivot bearing for the flybar in the head, and the flybar passes through it. The pin, which during assembly simply dropped into the hole in the flybar, needed to be driven out with a small hammer and a pin punch.

One end of this pin, for whatever reason, became galled and bound up in the head in the first five minutes of hovering the XP. After removing the pin, I carefully polished it with a Dremel tool, a small felt wheel, and some polishing compound. This was followed by a treatment with some dulled 600 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper (dry). To dull the sandpaper, simply take a small piece and sand it with another piece. It takes the sharp edges off the silicon glop. After a bit of work, checking carefully along the way, the pin once more pivots freely in the hub. I reassembled the head, applied a couple of drops of Tri-Flow oil to its ends, then went back out to hover for another five minutes or so.

The second time around was much more satisfactory. GOOD news.

The collective and tail rotor control of the XP are clean, crisp, and very precise. Much more so than the stock EP400 counterpart. All the slop is gone, the heli responds to small stick movements and responds positively. The nice feel of the EP400 remains, only feeling more solid and more under control.

After all the rebuild procedure, including using a set of digital calipers to build the head pushrods, the blades tracked dead-on perfect off the bench. And stayed that way even after I tore the head down, fixed the seesaw pin, and reassembled the head.

From now on, a preflight inspection will include checking the free-ness of that pivot point, and an occasional dab of Tri-Flow. If you've got the XP -- check that pivot point regularly and make sure your flybar is free to tilt, and not bound up.

Dave
12-20-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Agustapower
Heliman
Location:

Caliber 400XP

I saw this new version of the 400 and decided I had to have one.
I spoke with Chris @ www.caliber30.com and he gave me the info I needed to make a quick decision, so a kit is on the way to me as I type.

I am impressed with the layout of the mechanics and the limited use of bling. We are supposed to fly these not wear them like jewelry after all.

I should have my kit early next week. The last electric model I flew was a Graupner Agusta 109 power that I converted and flew at the 2000 AMA nats.

I still wish I had that model with todays Lipos.
12-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
shesha
Veteran
Location: Kuwait

Just a note on the tail wag issue, i read on another runryder thread, i think it was on the trex 600 having a similar issue with the 401 gyro and same servo if not mistaken, the solution was to increase the travel limit for the TR servo via the gyro limit adjuster until you have the TR bind either direction the limit of binding, and you should have you gain down to 80 or 85% max.

Dont if that solves your tail wag issue, I did try the recommended suggestion, to my surprise it did fix the tail wag, as well as not having any binding whilst flying with my friends heli, or was that a tail wag issue, dont recall here is the thread if I am not mistaken.

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t277728p1/

Zero bubble....
12-21-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Agusta -- I think you'll have fun with the XP. It is a very well thought out design. The original EP400 flew pretty well, the upgrades present in the XP version are all truly functional. None of the upgrades in the XP version are there for bling's sake alone.

Chris at RC Heliworks will take good care of you when you need parts, as well. Excellent service and knows his stuff.

What motor are you putting in the EP? I'm guessing it's the Align 430L/3550KV motor. That would be an excellent choice.

As for pinions, I know that you can now get the following pinions from Kyosho:

CA2035-31 31-tooth pinion
CA2035-32 32-tooth pinion
CA2035-33 33-tooth pinion

Chris may have these, but I don't see them in his XP parts list.

BUT -- Robinson Racing Products has a wide selection of 64pitch pinions with 1/8th inch diameter bores that work extremely well with the XP. I bought a bunch of different sizes (number of teeth) from Tower Hobbies last year so I could experiment on which pinions would work well. The Robinson Racing pinions fit the Align motor perfectly. The wide range of pinions available from Robinson Racing allows you to put just about ANY motor in this heli and have a suitable pinion to drive the mechanics.

I'm currently running a Just Go Fly 450TH motor with a 32-tooth pinion and the heli flies great. I may pick up a 33-tooth pinion to give that a try. The 450TH is close to the 430L KV wise and power-wise.

What servos are you planning to use in the XP? Beware that the dimension from the top of the servo case to the top of the mounting lug on the side of the case is critical and if too long will allow the elevator servo to interfere with the collective pitch lever. Hitec HS-56 servos are too tall in this regard, I had to build some shims to move the servo outward to clear the lever.

If you haven't bought batteries, by all means purchase some with at least a 20C continuous rating. I'm currently flying Thunder Power TP2100 3S Pro Lites, and they work, albeit they are a tiny bit on the marginal side. The newer crop of Thunder Power Extremes and other 20C rated batteries are the way to go for high performance.

Use at least a 35A ESC. If you go all digital servos, seriously consider installing a separate BEC to power the radio, servos, and gyro.

The GY401 gyro works very well in the EP.

I don't know if you read much of this thread or more specifically the more recent posts I've put up with regard to the XP conversion. I just got finished converting my year-old EP400 to the XP version and posted a bunch of information about the XP along the way. Reading the newer posts may save you a lot of grief. Looking through the entire thread will give you a LOT of background on the EP400 in general. Construction pics of the EP are in my gallery, as well as the upgrade pics.

Have fun flying, and Merry Christmas.

Dave
12-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Agustapower
Heliman
Location:

Thanks

Dave,
I appreciate all the good info. I have not seen to many posts about the XP version. It seems like everybody is caught up in the T-rex these days.
Bob
12-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

I have tried many motor/pinion combos and the best system that I have used to date is the Hacker A20-6XL with a 37 tooth pinion. This has outstanding power and runs much cooler than other motors. The head speed with this pinion is about 2700. Using a 35 tooth pinion slowed the head but gained nothing. Run time was the same and the performance in 3D was not as good. The motor is $69 and is Hacker quality.

As for the tail wag.....try the new Futaba S3254 and it will likely eliminate the wag. It did for me.

Dwight
12-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Woo Hoo!

40 degrees outside, sunny, a 10-15 mph wind so it was a bit chilly on the ol' fingers. But...

...I got a flight in on the EP400 that I converted to an EP400XP.

Wow. What a difference. It's almost day and night. I thought the stock EP400 handled well. It does feel much like its bigger kin in flight. But with the new swash, the new no-Z-Bend linkages, the boom mounted TR servo and the new TR stuff, this heli is even better than it used to be.

The collective, cyclic, and TR response is great. Very crisp, very smooth, and very precise. The feel of the new machine in the air is even better than it was before I upgraded it to the XP version. Loops, rolls, flips, inverted flying and hovering are all performed much better with the new head and tail feathers.

I didn't think the difference would be THAT noticeable, but it is. I had a small amount of tail wag, but nothing unmanageable, and for the most part it was not bothersome at all.

Kyosho should have released this version earlier, it is a really NICE flying heli now. The conversion was worth it, in my opinion. If you just purchased an XP, you have a real treat in store for you when you go to fly it.

The Just Go Fly 450TH was in fine form, the 32-tooth pinion doing its job. On my way home from the field, I stopped by the LHS and picked up a 33-tooth pinion to try out on this heli. I also have some 20C LiPos on the way, that should help out, too. The TP 2100 3S Pro Lites are fine, but the additional current capability of the 20C packs will be welcome.

Dave

OH -- almost forgot:

MERRY CHRISTMAS
12-24-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Qooo
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

Merry Christmas!!

Dave,
Do you need to reduce the travels of elevator & aileron? because the mixing arms hit the inner of swashplate ...

By the way, I just ordered DX7 and it will be arrived today ... What a Christmas Gift to myself!!

DX7 - FREYA EVO90 SWM - LEPTON EX - T600E - Thinking 9303 2.4G
12-25-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Didn't notice any problems other than what I've indicated in the earlier posts.

Dave
12-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
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