RunRyder - Looking for advise and inexpensive CAD software...

rrTV-PHOTO

New HD TV

HOME rrTV-PHOTO GALLERIES MY GALLERY HELP-FAQ

myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 808 ONLINE 20 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER START HERE

1 page

2897 views

POST REPLY

XHELI.COM	.	Autography FlightPower	.	Advantage Hobby
	.		.

CAD - Engineering - Technical > Looking for advise and inexpensive CAD software...

Disciple4123
Veteran
Location: Waynesboro, VA USA

I am engineering a flapping wing nitro bird (ornithopter) for airborne surveillance purposes. This will have a frame and transmission made of fiberglass with shafts, gears, bearings, connecting rods, etc. Can anyone reccommend an easy to use 3D capable software package? I am currently trying out the free software that comes with emachineshop 's free download. It is probably all I need, but I cannot get it to draw gears with proper intersections. Gears aren't user friendly on that software. I've been using circles to represent gears with some success.

My plan is to use sticker paper in my printer, CAD draw 2D plans, print it to scale 1:1, stick it to fiberglass, mount fiberglass to a milling table on my drill press and cut/drill by sight according to the printed sheet. Is this a reasonable plan for machining? This bird will be a prototype and I am sure that several changes will come down the pike, so sending machining plans off will probably not yield an effective platform in the first try.

Thanks for any advise.
Eric

Eric

12-11-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

OT45
Senior Heliman
Location: Kingston, NY

Regarding CAD, I'll let someone else reply.

There is nothing wrong with your idea of printing out the plans and directly attach then to your stock for fabrication. I would stick with regular printer paper and use some super 77 to tack it down. I suggest including a refrence scale on your print to make sure it's printed 1:1. If you have dial calipers, you can check the accuracy of your print. Also, if you dimension your hole patterns, you can scribe then right over the paper/stock and center drill and drill them out on the drill press.
I would just use a scroll saw to do the actual cutting followed by sanding.
Try to work as accuratelly as possible since your prototype will need to reflect your CAD work. This will help later when making changes.

-OT

scratch building is not just for planks

12-11-2005 Over year old.

Disciple4123
Veteran
Location: Waynesboro, VA USA

OK, as far as I am concerned I can continue using the CAD program I am using now for 2D flat plate cuts. I cannot figure how to render 3D assemblies with several items of flat stock on the program, as I am a CAD rookie. I drew some circles and lines to a given length and checked them after printing and my printer's accuracy is good. I could not discern any deviation on metric parameters against a ruler. I can get some Super 77, good idea, as sticker paper is $2 a sheet and I am glad to stay away from it. Is Super 77 able to be cleaned off? I used some a decade ago, can't recall too much about it.

Although I do not have a scroll saw, I have a very good Dewalt jigsaw that may work with a fine blade. Or I also can put an M3 end mill in the drill press for this and turn the wheel on a milling table to move it alongst in one direction, which is a better choice? The dimensional cuts can be OK within about 1mm for this, the drilled holes and or slots are what centers objects in this design by bolting against perpendicular alu. or HDPE 6mm square joiners, shafts, and bearings, and I am guessing I'd want to be about 1/3mm or better tolerance for them.

Thanks,

Eric

12-11-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

OT45
Senior Heliman
Location: Kingston, NY

Super 77 can be cleaned off with solvents. I think naptha works. The idea is to just dust your drawings. Don't soke them. This way you can later remove them. There are also some less tacky sprays available designed to be non permanent. Some I tried don't stick too well. Elmers spray adhesive is pretty cheap and works well too if you are concerned about cost.

Your jigsaw should work well for trimming your fiberglass plate. Just remember fiberglass is abrasive on your tools.

I'm not sure on your drill press setup. I once tried an endmill in a drill chuck with bad results. The sideways cutting forces combined with the downward flutes, popped the chuck out of it's arbor. So I can't recommend it unless you have collets to properly hold your endmill.

You will have to allow for some error in your build. As an example, you might want to make your holes .010" oversizes to avoid binding.
If the dimensions are critical such as bearing bores, use a reamer. Last, if you are making two identical frames, stack them with double sided tape and cut /drill both at the same time for a matched set.

-OT

scratch building is not just for planks

12-11-2005 Over year old.

Jyrki
Senior Heliman
Location: Loimaa, Finland

rhinoceros

www.rhino3d.com

that is seriously a multipurpose modelling software.

+ good modelling tools for a nurbs model (not only polygonal)--> you can model without limits ANYTHING and it's allmost mathematically accurate (a perimeter of D=1 circle is 3.14159264...) That is possible because it's nurbs, not polygon aproximated like some toy cads.
+ great import export (many use it for a converter between formats)
+ low price (you can also evaluate

- needs someone to help with start modelling
- the parameters in 2d (like a radius change in a corner) are not copied back to 3d... you must rebuild the model sometimes again from 2d projections. So Rhino is not the ultimate cost effective software for industry when the time is money.

01-09-2006 Over year old.

CRB68
Senior Heliman
Location: Tombstone, AZ

There is A9Cad. Uses Autocad format and reads Auto cad files as well. Price? FREE. Do a Google on A9Cad.

Super 77 can be cleaned off with solvents. I think naptha works. The idea is to just dust your drawings. Don't soke them. This way you can later remove them. There are also some less tacky sprays available designed to be non permanent. Some I tried don't stick too well. Elmers spray adhesive is pretty cheap and works well too if you are concerned about cost.

Another way that I use on CF and F'glass is to soak the part in Lacquer Thinner. Then just wipe off with a paper towel.

PJ

01-23-2006 Over year old.

sunfm
Senior Heliman
Location: Chemainus BC Canada

Auto Sketch

its a good program

very user friendly

many 3D tools and easy to use

my 2 cents

Align Trex 450 XL HDE ------ I LOVE IT---------

02-07-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Maybe this one? I've used it in the past.

http://deltacad.com/

Chris Bergen

02-07-2006 Over year old.

Disciple4123
Veteran
Location: Waynesboro, VA USA

Thanks for the info, I've gotten used to the emachineshop software and may stick with it, although I still cannot get gears represented on it. Now If I ever get a CNC unit I will have to learn how to run a FANUC controller and get it set to cut things. I have no engineering degrees or apprenticeships, so these things are a bit new to me.

Thanks,

Eric

02-08-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

spiller
Heliman
Location: BRISBANE, AUSTRALIA

Cad Packages

Just a quick note on Cad packages to engineer your bird,
You need something that will generate part files and drawings to machien from.

Rhino is a very capable cad package but it is more surfacing and styling and not engineering.

Pro Engineer, Solidworks and Solid Edge are all very powerful packages with heaps of design features. You can do styling, engineering and even mechanise and simulate your final design to make sure everything will work, things will turn, levers will... lever e.t.c. They will produce files that you can email away to have the parts made using a variety of different prototyping methods. These packages cost serious money though as does rapid prototyping of any sort, including cnc machining and investment casting. If you're happy to spend upwards of $6,000 then these are the way to go.

Alibre is a new package that is marketing as an alternative to the other big boys, but is pretty cheap. The first 100,000 lisences cost $50.

If you are getting by using what you are using, keep using it. If you are looking at getting a cnc, there is some incredible, quality machinery coming out of China for the cost of a song and a smile.

Generaly, the right software for the job is way to expensive.

06-17-2006 Over year old.

Disciple4123
Veteran
Location: Waynesboro, VA USA

Thanks for the info spiller. Getting the pieces integrated to work/move as designed on the computer as the assembled product is neat, but likely a bit over my head to learn such a program. I know the $$ is an issue to. I think getting emachineshop to make the prototype for me will be over $500 based on their instant pricing. They also want 2-4 weeks to make something, due to this I am leaning to cutting all pieces out of a 2x4' sheet of fiberglass on a table with a router (hand not cnc). The printer paper templates will be adhered to the sheet prior to manuf.

I think that putting $500 or more to emachineshop is fine for an established design, but haphazard for prototyping.

Eric

06-18-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

busted blade
Senior Heliman
Location: orlando,florida

a long time ago they used to design very complex assemblies with pencils and rulers.

bling bling, cha ching......... but honey

06-30-2006 Over year old.

Rhyno
Heliman
Location: Napier New Zealand

I only have one recommendation regarding Cad software...ALIBRE DESIGN...You can go to their website and download a free version.http://www.alibre.comThis ia as good if not better than solid works.

I'm what Willis was talking about

08-03-2006 Over year old.

cclark440
Heliman
Location: Lake Forest, Ca USA

I am have been using Alibre for 4 years. It has come a long way in those for years, but I don't think I could say that it is better than Solidworks. Sure it will do just about anything someone might need in modeling a heli, but if you are trying to create complex surfaces Alibre won't cut it.

Don't get me wrong Alibre is by far the biggest bang for the buck, since you can get the free version, www.alibre.com/xpress that will do many things.

Here is an example of a T-Rex (I think) head that a guy modeled using Alibre.
Trex Head

08-03-2006 Over year old.

HybridHeli
Heliman
Location: East Texas lawman

It's an ARK 400..
I am an engieer and I use Pro-E WF 2.0 which is by no means free... but I can recommend ADX.

08-10-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

spindoctor
Heliman
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Drawing gears.

I'm sure you thought of this, but there's no point in drawing gears, unless you plan on having cu$tom gears cut, as opposed to locating the parts you need off-the-shelf.

08-18-2006 Over year old.

Disciple4123
Veteran
Location: Waynesboro, VA USA

Gear cutting: you are right, gear drawing is not a neccessity, I was just frustrated with my inability to get that done on emachineshop. If practical, I would make certain gears. A giant 150:1 or so single gearset reduction platform could be made with the right 0.5 pitch module metric gears, this sort of thing is not available off the shelf and would reduce weight/complexity a lot. I have accepted a 2 stage reduction transmission for mine, and it will come together fine at 200:1 reduction.

Right now I just purchased a router, and have a drill press with 2 axis table. These tools should allow me to machine 2-5mm fiberglass or even wood at first to get the assembly fitment verification done. I will just print templates on paper and freehand rout it.

I looked at Alibre, esp. the free xpress version. The rotorhead example that was posted was a good example of an assembly with working components attached on the computer. It may take some time, but I'd like to develop the ability to make components function on the computer as an assembly, transmission, reciprocating parts, etc. I do believe that I will have a mechanical example prior to a CAD one though

Quote
a long time ago they used to design very complex assemblies with pencils and rulers.

Amen.

Thanks for all the advise,

Eric

08-19-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Disciple4123
Veteran
Location: Waynesboro, VA USA

I got a hold of a small piece of ABS plastic and made the 1's part with the router. The paper template was cut out, glued to the plastic, and traced. It came out fairly accurate, I'd say 0.2mm in permiter accuracy. The piece jumped off of the drill press and thus cracked when drilling the M8 bore. I'll secure it better next time The plastic piece was also too short, thus 4 holes instead of 6, just trying to test the technique.

As far as materials go, I am planning on using fiberglass, 1/8" primarily for final production, ABS or HDPE for prototyping to save money and reduce dust. Any other reccommendations? You try to get plastic stock at LOWE's and they do not have any, have to go with Mcmaster carr again.

Eric

08-21-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

1 page

2897 views

POST REPLY

Revolution Models	.	CarbonXtreme	.	Midland Helicopters
	.		.

CAD - Engineering - Technical > Looking for advise and inexpensive CAD software...

PRINT TOPIC

Advertisers

Subscribe to This Topic