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Kyosho Caliber 30 & 60 - Concept - Nexus > Caliber 400 ??>

ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Dwight, not sure of the diameter, i am at work now, but i know the blades are 285mm verses the trex 315-325mm. I used the 2750kv motor first but it was not great, much like a direct power swap with the stock motor, the 3350kv motor is better. I know you think a 31t pinion is what you have used in the past but i doubt the little ultrafly motors could spin the mechanics with such a large pinion. On the 20t stock pinion they are at their limits, going bigger on the pinion will just make it worse. I have a feeling the best choice will be the 450th motor that many of us run in the trex with a 20-22t pinion to suit. One problem i have is the genuine pinions are 2.3 bore and many of the motors i want to try are 3.17 and the stock pinion is hardened so it cant be rebored. I still have had no luck finding suitable pinions down here (Australia).

we can never have too many, can we ?

11-24-2005 Over year old.

dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Reviews and comments along the lines of those posted by Dwight and Ozace are more in line with real life, useful posts. I appreciate reading their comments can only hope that when I am able to spring for an EP 400 that my posts will be at least as useful and informative.

Dave

11-24-2005 Over year old.

ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

I just want to add that at the moment i prefer the "feel" of the ep 400 to the trex SE. Although the SE is more capable i just like the smooth solid feel the Kyosho has and it is more enjoyable for ME.

we can never have too many, can we ?

11-24-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Ozace,

I can tell you for sure that I was flying the 2750kv motor and 31 tooth pinion. I do not have any video but someone might have some of the machine flying at the recent California trade show.

Yesterday I installed the 2750 and stock 20 tooth pinion and the head speed was only about 1500. This told me that the pinion had to be changed to get the head speed up. This was not what I expected. The stock motor works better with the 20 tooth pinion that the brushless does.

Dwight

11-24-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Thomas,

What exactly did your friend use for batteries if he could barley get the machine off the ground. I am flying with the stock motor and lithium batteries and the machine flys very well. It is not full 3D capable with this setup but it definately flys acceptable for an out of the box machine.

Dwight

11-24-2005 Over year old.

Caliber1
Senior Heliman
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Quote
What exactly did your friend use for batteries if he could barley get the machine off the ground

Dwight, I'm interested in what you are using for batteries also. Thanks.

11-24-2005 Over year old.

ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Dwight, i am looking forward to some reports of the 2750 motor turning a 31t pinion. I have a little experience with micro helis and brushless motors and i dont dispute that the 2750 motor needs a larger pinion but its ability to turn a 31t pinion is in doubt. These motors are very small and dont have much in the way of reserve power for a heli this size , i know the 2750 kv motor i have (c-13-28) was at its peak turning the 20t.
Do you know what brand motor you were using ?
I did try the 400dh motor kv 4400 and the 20t pinion but the heli felt as though it was going to self destruct during the test. Unless i got a dud heli from the factory i can see no way of getting the HS into the 2500-3000 bracket like we fly our trex's.

we can never have too many, can we ?

11-25-2005 Over year old.

helibob
Heliman
Location: White Plains, NY

Tail Bounce Caliber 400

I just built the EP400, everthing went together pretty smooth, but I'm getting a terrible tail bounce. Usually it's the Main shaft or stablizer, but it's hasn't crashed, Yet! The blades are balanced.

Thoughts?

11-25-2005 Over year old.

ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

low head speed will be your problem.
What setup are you using?

we can never have too many, can we ?

11-25-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Using a 31 tooth pinion the machine is running approximately 12 to 1. Since my knowledge of electric helicopters is coming from the vast knowledge of people like Shaun at Hacker and others that I have talked with at the trade shows I can not argue any paticular point but only tell you what I know for sure based on current experience.

As far as the brushless motor it is a motor that Shaun told me he was familiar with that was made for Kyosho specifically. Now whether that is true I do not know however he told me the motor is a very good motor but it is good for sport power not necessarly aggressive 3D. I can do mild 3D with the Kyosho motor but then as it has been said in this forum, everybody has there own idea of what is good and experimentation will eventually show the best combination.

As for batteries I am using the Apex 2200 flat pack that is rated at 12C. This pack clearly is better than the previous Apex 2000 square pack rated at 10C. Both packs give a little over 10 minutes of flying time. The 12C pack made a significant improvement in the 3D ability.

Dwight

11-25-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Helibob,

Do you mean a oscillation or vibration? If it is a oscillation then the head speed is definately the problem. If it is a vibration then it is likely main rotor balance. If you have not checked the balance of the main blades I would. The paper that comes on the blades may throw off the balance. Also try to see if you have a bent mainshaft. If you have a buzzing in the fins the problem is the tail balance.

Dwight

11-25-2005 Over year old.

HeliK
Senior Heliman
Location: SoCal

Quote
I do not have any video but someone might have some of the machine flying at the recent California trade show.

I threw together quickly a short clip with some music added from the ihobby show of Dwight flying the C-400. I don't know how long the video will stay up on this site so if someone has a place to host it please do so.

www.driftclub.com/Caliber400.wmv

11-25-2005 Over year old.

ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

nice little vid and nice flying Dwight.

we can never have too many, can we ?

11-25-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Ozace,

Thanks for posting the video as it helps to show that even though I can't do that much indoors at least the machine is capable.
I just found out from Kyosho Japan that the 400 I was flying had a 33 tooth pinion.
This last weekend, a friend of mine who makes his own brushless motors, told me that the brushless motor is like a glow engine and if you are running beyond the power band the engine will be very anemic. I am sure that is why Kyosho choose to use a 33 tooth pinion because it flys well at that ratio with the 2750kv motor.

Dwight

11-25-2005 Over year old.

rayysmans
Senior Heliman
Location: Michigan

caliber 400 or Trex SE ???

I guess my question is should I stop my pre-order for the Caliber 400 and get the new Trex SE or not ???

11-25-2005 Over year old.

Optech
Key Veteran
Location: Vista/Oceanside, CA.

rayysmans,

I've had my Cal400 for several days now but have been biting my tongue until I've had a chance to play with it a little. I've got a different motor and some pinions coming to maybe perk it up. However, in the interest of unbiased opinion I have to say that this heli is no where near the heli a Trex SE, or even an XL, is at this point.

If you buy this heli thinking it will be on par with a Trex SE you will be severely disappointed. Hated to say it, but there it is.

Full report coming soon.

Mike

Viva La Airtronics!

11-26-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Yesterday I installed an Aon 3500kv motor (http://www.gwsexpert.com/product_in...adaf3109983062a) and a 24 tooth pinion.
This combination is spinning the head upwards of 2600 and the power is unbelievable however the engine is getting too hot. Today I am going to change the pinion to 22 teeth to see if this reduces the heat of the motor. I do not have a heat sink on the motor yet but that may be necessary. The battery run time appears to be about 6.5 to 7 minutes on a 2200 pack.

11-26-2005 Over year old.

Optech
Key Veteran
Location: Vista/Oceanside, CA.

Dwight,

I'm using an Aon right now myself only its the 3000kv with the 2.3mm shaft. I've been using Aons since they first came out and they do run a tad hot if there is no airflow over them. The nice thing, well two really, about the Trex is that the main gears have a molded fan that blows air over the motor, also.... there is enough room for the Aon heat sink. This is not the case in the C400. With the pitch arm where it is, there is no room. One of the GWS style sinks might work if you trim off the mounting tabs but they don't have as much coverage as the Aon.

While were talking motors, a mistake I see forming here is choosing a motor based soley on Kv rating. I don't think in-runners with big pinions is the way to go. It totally negates the beauty of this dual stage gear train, and the horsepower curves of an in-runner. In your previous post you mention an analogy comparing gas motors to electric but it is not completely correct. Unlike gas motors, when loaded beyond its rating, an electric motor will continue to draw current, to try to turn, up to the point it exceeds its wattage rating and burns up. Your seeing some of this in your Aon getting hot. Its being "lugged" below its desired HP curve and is drawing too much current to try to get there. The hotter the motor, the more it will need to wind up to do work. Have you put a meter on it to see how much current your pulling?

EDIT: I calculated from a fully charged pack that you are using around 18-18.5 amps for about 200watts.... Thats pretty close to the max rating of these motors at 250 watts. Without airflow or heat sinking, yeah, its gonna get hot. However, Aon says these motors are good to about 180-200F if I recall. Do you have a temp gauge?

One of the reasons I think Kyosho specifys the Ultrafly motors is because of the out-runner torque/HP curves and possibly the built in cooling fan. A big pinion on a slower turning Out-runner makes more sense and unlike Ozace, I think the Ufly can handle the bigger pinions even though its a smaller, lighter motor.

However, I've ordered some bigger pinions for my Aon 3000kv which is very close to the 2750kv of the Ufly so we'll see what happens. Even so, I don't think the Ufly/big pinion will be the ultimate direction and have ordered a different motor to test a theory I have..... we'll see

Later,
Mike

Viva La Airtronics!

11-26-2005 Over year old.

ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Mike looking forward to your new motor report. I just wish i could get the .4mod pinions locally so i can really get the motor choice sorted.
The 400dh motor that many used on the zooms should be a very good candidate using a 10t-15t pinion. (dependiong on the actual kv of the motor, some were 3800 some 4400)

we can never have too many, can we ?

11-26-2005 Over year old.

Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

This afternoon I installed a 20 tooth pinion on the Aon 3500kv motor and it made a significant difference in the heat generated. The motor is running much cooler but still hotter than it should however the power is very good. I will likely stick with this setup and try to install some sort of cooling fins on the motor. I think the idea of the outrunner makes sense but I have a hard time arguing with the power I am experiencing with the inrunner.

Dwight

11-27-2005 Over year old.

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Kyosho Caliber 30 & 60 - Concept - Nexus > Caliber 400 ??>

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