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Thunder Power RC . Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC

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e-E-Flite Blade CP mCX CX 400-3D > Brushless motor and stock 4in1 works!
 
 
bert269
Heliman
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Nope, I have not tried that - I am also having a very hard time to get any pinion under 8t!!! Anyone having luck with finding a 7t or even 6t??? I tried the link specified on page 5 of this tread, but ran into a dead 'web space'.....The lowest I can go, the better (or bigger on the main-gear - but what is the chances of that?)

Please let me know if you came accross a place to buy these 6/7t pinions
04-05-2006 Over year old.
 
 
avator
Veteran
Location: New Jersey

I think the problem with going lower than an 8 tooth pinion gear is that there is so little metal left after the teeth are cut that it is impractical. The wall between the teeth and the motor shaft wouldn't be very strong. Just a thought.
04-05-2006 Over year old.
 
 
murp
Senior Heliman
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Check out this link - someone has made a PDF with detailed instructions. If you have problems with the link, let me know, I can send you the document.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...e+brushless+mod
04-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

After a long vacation from the Esky/Blade project while my wife had a baby - I'm back with a little time on my hands so I decided to finish this mod.

I am using Kyosho 7T pinion, Century Auto Gear, Century 4100Kv brushless motor, Century Electron 12 Speed Control, GWS DD tail, and TP Gen2 3s 730mah lipo.

I just did the proverbial test hover in the dark - everything seems to be running great! The headspeed seems PERFECT for my taste with the 7T pinion!! I estimate it to be around 2000RPM - too dark to tach now.

I will post pics, all up weight, power consumption data, and tached HEAD RPM info tomorrow - along with feedback after doing some FF.

PS - you can get your 7-tooth .5 modulus pinion here: http://www.alansmodels.com/main_site/home/index.htm

Alan's Model Shop [sales@alansmodels.com]

Sample Quote w/shipping to USA:

KYOSHO AZW002-07 5.75 GBP
Airmail post 1.35 GBP

Total 7.10 GBP
05-29-2006 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

GEAR PITCH VS MODULUS INFO:

m (modulus) = (Pitch Circle Diameter(mm)) / (Number of teeth on gear).

dp (diamterical pitch) = (Number of Teeth) / Diametrical Pitch (inches)






If you use 48 pitch pinions, you can expect to eat your main gears. For the best & longest lasting performance, you should stick with metric .5 modulus pinions.




YOU CAN FIND TECHNICAL STANDARDS FOR GEARS HERE:
http://www.agma.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home
American Gear Manufacturers Association



Diametral pitch...... The number of teeth per one inch of pitch circle diameter.
Module. ...... The length, in mm, of the pitch circle diameter per tooth.
Circular pitch...... The distance between adjacent teeth measured along the are at the pitch circle diameter
Addendum...... The height of the tooth above the pitch circle diameter.
Centre distance...... The distance between the axes of two gears in mesh.
Circular tooth thickness...... The width of a tooth measured along the are at the pitch circle diameter.
Dedendum...... The depth of the tooth below the pitch circle diameter.
Outside diameter...... The outside diameter of the gear.
Base Circle diameter...... The diameter on which the involute teeth profile is based.
Pitch circle dia...... The diameter of the pitch circle.
Pitch point...... The point at which the pitch circle diameters of two gears in mesh coincide.
Pitch to back...... The distance on a rack between the pitch circle diameter line and the rear face of the rack.
Pressure angle...... The angle between the tooth profile at the pitch circle diameter and a radial line passing through the same point.
Whole depth...... The total depth of the space between adjacent teeth.
05-29-2006 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Here are my observations on the Century 4100kv BL motor after 35 minutes and 6 flights - using 7T Kyosho pinion.

Temp of can at end of flight is about 16 degrees C above ambient. The main shaft is usually another +4 degrees C. Ambient temp range during testing has been from 15 - 27C. Bottom line - the motor runs about the same temp as stock - maybe one or two degrees C cooler.

Head speed unloaded is 2375RPM (Full Throttle/0 pitch)

I do not have an OPTO tach, and haven't found a neighborhood kid brave enough to hold the standard tach close enough in a hover.

But based on 80% of unloaded speed, Head Speed loaded is ~1900RPM at beginning of flight, fading to ~1700RPM or less for nominal flight, and fading farther to 1600RPM at flight end, depending on the battery pack.

The motor weighs the same as stock - so the total penalty is your BL ESC weight. The total weight penalty in my case is 18 grams with ferrite choke on the ESC. My all up weight now with 3s 730TP Lipo and woodies is 304 grams.


The avg amp draw during normal sport FF is 3.25A - 4A or more depending on your All Up Weight

The draw in a hover is 4A - 5.5A or more - depending on AUW and beginning or end of flight (amp draw goes up as pack voltage goes down).

Overall I'd say the power draw with this pinion is very close to stock.

I will probably be trying an 8T pinion next. I think this may offer the best performance for the whole flight. Right now, the last 3/4 of the flight comes with too low head speed.

I also think I will be setting up a hovering throttle trim knob on my Tx - so I can tune the throttle curve up as the battery starts to fade. That way I can try to keep the RPM down in the first 1 - 2 minutes, and then bring it up as the battery voltage sets into nominal- without changing the pitch curve.

I may also expiriment with flight modes for beginning and end of flight voltage conditions to try and manage RPM as voltage drops.



BL ESC is stashed under the 4-in-1. I'm using connectors, so the BL ESC and motor can be removed in seconds and I can fly a brushed motor.




Normal Mode Throttle & Pitch curves used for testing




In flight data recording w/Eagle Tree Micro Logger




Excel Flight Log
06-02-2006 Over year old.
 
 
TerenceChan
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Brushless Setup Flaws

Hi folks,

here are some pictures of hacking the 4 In 1 to brushless.
There are a few disadvantages though:
1. Direct connection to ESC from channel 3 bypasses the onboard mixer.
2. The 4 In 1's yaw rate gyro is not good enough unless you have revo mixing on the Tx or if you use a headlock gyro(but that means using only the receiver of the 4 In 1)

3. For fixed pitch flyers using Like90 Woodies, 12T pinion is necessary for a healthy headspeed to lift off.

06-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Skiddz
Veteran
Location: Carlsbad, CA

Quote 
1. Direct connection to ESC from channel 3 bypasses the onboard mixer.


Hmm. Works like a charm on mine. Channel 3 goes directly into the mixing board. The header is installed "upside down" to do so.

Quote 
2. The 4 In 1's yaw rate gyro is not good enough unless you have revo mixing on the Tx or if you use a headlock gyro(but that means using only the receiver of the 4 In 1)


Yaw rate "gyro" in the stock E-Flite 4-in-1 works just peachy here. No revo mixing out of my 9C - it's completely inhibited in normal and IDL1 and I can hover one handed indoors or with the nose pointed generally into the wind. In FF the tail follows along nicely as well.

Quote 
3. For fixed pitch flyers using Like90 Woodies, 12T pinion is necessary for a healthy headspeed to lift off.


Depends on the KV rating of the motor and the batteries you're feeding it with. A 2-cell LiPo @7.4v spins a motor slower than a 3-cell LiPo @11.1v. 4100KV motor spins faster per volt than a 3600KV motor.

A helicopter is 10,000 parts spinning rapidly around an oil leak.
06-14-2006 Over year old.
 
 
TerenceChan
Heliman
Location: Singapore

hey, now that you mention it, there is revo mixing after all since my channel 3 is still plugged to the other PCB board of the 4 In 1.

I guess my experience with the poor tail response is due to the crappy gyro of my 4 In 1. I got a replacement '4 In 1' of another manufacturer when I fried the first one. The gyro's sensitivity sucks horribly as compared to the previous 4 In 1 I had.

Even when the gyro gain is set to maximum, the tail is still rather sluggish.
I had soldered a 'short' jumper to bypass the variable capacitor in order to maximise the gain (zero resistance for maximum gyro effect), but it's still the same as when the capacitor was turned down to minimum(max gyro gain).

I'm thinking of tapping channel 4 to a Futaba gy240 (Headlock gyro). Which brushed ESC should I use for the stock motor when using GY240??
Does the brushed ESC for the tail tap power from the 4 In 1 or from the lipo directly?

Regards,
terence
06-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Eric_N57105
Heliman
Location: Riverside, CA

Quote 
Even when the gyro gain is set to maximum, the tail is still rather sluggish.
I had soldered a 'short' jumper to bypass the variable capacitor in order to maximise the gain (zero resistance for maximum gyro effect), but it's still the same as when the capacitor was turned down to minimum(max gyro gain).


The gain control is a potentiometer, not a variable capacitor. When you shorted it with the jumper you replicated the potentiometer's position fully counterclockwise.

"Gain" in the 4n1 is entirely handled in software. The pot just acts as a voltage divider which the microcontroller reads to determine how tightly it should be correcting the tail. Low voltage, it lets the tail wander a bit. Higher voltage, it corrects it more often. You can jumper the pot out, but there isn't any advantage over just turning it to one extreme or the other.

The propo mixing pot works the same way. It just provides a DC voltage to the microcontroller for evaluation in software.

Eric
www.ke6us.com
06-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TerenceChanHeliman - Location: Singapore -
Thanks for the info Eric.

I am running on a low budget this month after buying the Phoenix 10, Himax 3600kv and this second-hand '4 in 1' box that has a crappy gyro. Guess I'm putting the Futaba GY240 on hold until I get my pay cheque.

I think I fly a lot better with the fried '4 in 1' board that I repaired.
Only problem with this resurrected '4 in 1' is - the receiver, gyro, esc and bec are fully integrated on a small piece of pcb so it's impossible for me to tap pure channel 3 signal. No choice but to use the Powerzone adapter for brushless conversion.

Ironically, although there is no potentiometer or gain control on this board, its gyroscopic effect is really good.

Cheers,
Terence

06-19-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Abysmal_Torment
Heliman
Location: Conroe Texas

ok i just went out and bought the Eflite Park 370 5400kv Motor....it might be overkill just a bit....im hoping it wont be...but,i'll let ya know how it goes.
06-24-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Abysmal_Torment
Heliman
Location: Conroe Texas

SUCCESS!! It works! But two problems..... The Blades Spin the wrong direction,and The motor finally cuts on at Half throttle.... Any suggestions?
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Switch any two wires around on the BL motor to change direction, or use your BL ESC programming feature to reverse rotation.

It also sounds like you have some Tx programming to do, or your ESC throttle range needs to be programmed - if your throttle doesn't start until half stick.

Happy Landings!
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
lryansl
Senior Heliman
Location: Yuma, Arizona

Abysmal_Torment,
I have the same problem with my motor starting at half throttle and i cant figure out why its like that. If you figure it out let me know.
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Martin_gsxr
Veteran
Location: Montreal, Canada

Hi Ryans, you have to setup your EPA (%down and %up) on channel-3 (throttle) if you have a computer TX...
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Martin_gsxr
Veteran
Location: Montreal, Canada

Ryans,

for down, trim the EPA till the motor stop and put a safe 5% more down...

For up trim the EPA up till the red light flash on the ESC, then 5% down for safe...
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
lryansl
Senior Heliman
Location: Yuma, Arizona

Martin,
I did what you said but for some reason when i change the throttle epa it screws up the rudder and I cant get the gyro to arm.
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Abysmal_Torment
Heliman
Location: Conroe Texas

I forgot to mention i am using the Stock TX. Is there a way to program it without the programming cord? But yeah,i'll switch out the 2 wires.
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Martin_gsxr
Veteran
Location: Montreal, Canada

Hi Ryans, make sure your throttle-stick is all the way down.... if not the gyro will never be ready...

Your ESC is setup to FIX or AUTO throttle ?
06-25-2006 Over year old.
 
 
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e-E-Flite Blade CP mCX CX 400-3D > Brushless motor and stock 4in1 works!
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