RunRyder - Power problem on ECO 8

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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Power problem on ECO 8

windyone
Senior Heliman
Location: York, England

Hi Guys

For some reason I dont seem to have te same power as I usd to have with my ECO 8. I am running a Hacker B50-18S with 3s/2p lipos and a head speed of around 1900.

It just doesnt seem to want to climb out any more and sound like it is bogging down. Pitch max is 10 degrees. Could my lipos be knacked? Could my motor be Knacked.

What max pitch do you guys fly at?.

Any thoughts?

Mick

11-20-2005 Over year old.

flyingmotorbike
Heliman
Location: Lancs UK

Make sure you are using a proper pitch gauge I used the Ikarus one to set it all up then after problems getting it to lift off used normal pitch gauge and blades were twisted.. with Ikarus gauge 5 degrees in centre on the blade grips but with proper gauge on the blades was on -3

11-20-2005 Over year old.

atb
Senior Heliman
Location: England

im currently flying +- 10.5 degrees running an axi 2814/12 pinion 21T and 10 cells separate rx battery pack at 1750 rpm it climbs like a monster and doesnt bog at all.

try dropping a tooth or 2 on the pinion to increase the torque or increase the headspeed more if your happy it'll stay together and just max pitch it at +-8 or something i dont like the idea of overloading the motor too much but each for there own.

hope this helps

atb

I lost 215 pounds on the eco diet in just 3 stick movements.

11-22-2005 Over year old.

Brian Bennett
Key Veteran
Location: Dugway/Tooele UT, USA

B50 18S:

Check the battery's volatge under load at mid charge. Also check overall capacity by cycling on your charger or by timing a hover-only flight for a full pack capacity from a full charge, recharging and seeing how much was consumed. It should be consuming at ca 18 amps in a hover. This should match your pack capacity. Load voltage and rated vs overall capacity are your most telling metrics for the pack. If in doubt, retire it or send it in for a check up.

On the eco, the 3S + 18S combo is best suited for a mild flight envelope with extended flight times. I flew the 18S for a year on my Eco and still keep it as a backup. Go with a B50-13L and a 4S pack if you want the aerobatics and power. Unfortunately, 4S will likely run very hot on your 18S.

It should loop and roll just fine with your setup. Its really quite enjoyable at 1800. ATB is correct. Drop your setup down one pinion size and check for bogging.That motor likes 1750-1800 on the Eco with a 3S voltage. Limit your pitch range to +/- 9.5 and thru iterative trials, back the cyclic off bit by bit until the headspeed doesn't sag with a linear midspeed roll. Please report back.

Brian

Team MRC-Hirobo and Model Avionics Rep

11-22-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

windyone
Senior Heliman
Location: York, England

Problem solved. I sent my lipo packs back to Flightpower for a check and they discovered that they struggled to provide the current - battery voltage dipped. My cells were quite old !

I have upgraded with the assistance of Flightpower. All I can say is that I am extremely impressed with the professional approach of Flightpower. Thanks guys.

12-22-2005 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

Anyone using a mega 22/20/4?

Hi! I've got a couple of questions for anyone who can help. I've been working with an Eco for a few months now and I've worked out most of the bugs so far except for one crucial problem - head speed. I can't seem to get the head speed up to a target of 1600 at hover loading. I bought this motor thinking it was a good choice for endurance flying, but my goals have changed - funny how that happens. Here's what I'm using:

essentially stock frame and head
Mega 22/20/4 1480 rpm/v
CC 45 esc
3s2p 5000 duralite lipos
pinions between 18 and 22
MAH CF sym. blades

I'm getting about 1550 at zero pitch, 1400 under load. I've tried switching out the pinions but that only seems to work the motor harder and doesn't increase the head speed. The bird will fly lazy eight's and hovers ok, but anything else boggs down the head speed and it gets mushy fast.

My questions are: Is this motor just too slow or weak to fly anything other that gentle FF? Should I look into a 22/20/3H that has 1850 rpm/v? Many fliers seem to have good luch with this motor. Is the problem in my ESC? Is the problem in my head?

I can't afford a hacker motor at this point, and I don't know enough about the axi motors to drop the dough yet. Any takers on this one? Thanks to all!

- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

01-30-2006 Over year old.

atb
Senior Heliman
Location: England

get an axi 2814/12 on 10 cells mine is so awsome ive dropped down to a 21t pinion and it rocks with 3 different headspeeds i have it setup so that it pulls 1650, 1750 & 1850 with +/- 10 degrees of pitch and im gonna drop it down another tooth before the next sesh at the club.

it has a massive climb rate to the point where i aint full sticked it yet at 1750 with absoloutly no signs of bogging out and runs soo sweet and absoloutly rock solid too with the stock head but i have added thrust bearings to it though.

are your cells putting out enough power?, what is the c rating for the cells?

i cant see the problem being your head, personally id look at cells or motor.

i know i aint helped too much but i hope it helps at least a little

atb

I lost 215 pounds on the eco diet in just 3 stick movements.

01-30-2006 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

Hmm....

atb,
I'm currently running 3s2p 5000mah lipos from duralite and one MaxAmps 3s2p 4200 mah, all of which are new (under 20 cycles, never harmed or fully depleted), 15c discharge rate and have good secure deans connectors, so I don't think it's there. I'm currently using a 20t pinion and the stock 180 main gear.

I looked at the AXI 2814/12 on hobby-lobby, it advertises at: 1390 RPM/V. Max current: 35A/60 sec., max efficiency current is 15 to 25 amps(per hobby-lobby).

My 22/20/4 is rated at 8 cells: 19-25T ; 10 cells: 15-20T pinion), Kv=1480, Io=1.2, RM=0.047 per fxaeromodels.

You are getting fantastic head speeds with a lower rpm/v rating on 10 cells(10 x 1.2v = 12v nominal) than I am on 3s lipo(11.1v nominal but usually around 12v) with 90 rpm/v greater rating - this doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it's an ESC problem? I'm using a Castle creations 45 which should handle the power load well enough. Any other thoughts from the crowd?

- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

01-30-2006 Over year old.

Brett Sumpter
Heliman
Location: Roswell, GA

It really sounds like a battery issue to me as well, they just can't maintain voltage under load.

What settings are you using on the esc?

01-30-2006 Over year old.

atb
Senior Heliman
Location: England

personally i think if you havnt been hammering your heli then theres no reason why your motor or esc should have gone.

do you have a watt meter to check what voltage is being pulled from the pack whilst flying the heli this should show you if it is the battery or not.

also are you using separate rx battery on the heli?

i got loads of funny little problems when i was using the bec particuarally with a high quality gyro that seemed to sap a lot of power from the whole heli.

also id look at the tension of the tail drive belt this can drop loads of power if too tight i run mine really loose so theres next to no tension on it at all and if you try to turn the tail drive gear when the main gear isnt on there is next to no resistance.

stupid thought i know but its worth just a quick check.

i really do believe its more likely to be the battery packs.

do you have a 10 cell nicad or nimh pack just to try it all out?

atb

I lost 215 pounds on the eco diet in just 3 stick movements.

01-30-2006 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

Yes, but...

I can see how it sounds like a battery issue, but three different new batteries by different manufacturers? The ends are well soldered and strong, both on the batteries and the ESC so I'm not convinced that it's a battery issue - yet. Plus, when I was using an old Jeti esc in the very beginning of this quest for the hover divine, I was getting fast head speeds but I had no idea what my esc settings were, so I moved to the CC45.
I called Castle Creations, they gave me some pointers on setting it up a little better. I need to set the pitch curve to zero (to prevent the bird from flying away), then tach the blades as I run through the throttle curve, watching fora solid red light on the esc which indicates full power to the motor. Then I set my curves accordingly. What a pain!!!
I'll check it out this way and see what happens. Previously I was set up in high govener mode with current limiting, this may be one source of my woes. I set it to fixed and current limiting disabled.

- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

01-30-2006 Over year old.

atb
Senior Heliman
Location: England

i know how you feel lol i think most of us had trouble setting them up in one way or another lol.

anyway let us know how you get on with setting it up how youve been told.

good luck

atb

I lost 215 pounds on the eco diet in just 3 stick movements.

01-30-2006 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

BEC

Since switching to the CC45 I've been using the ESC's BEC, I think I'll disable that and go back to the UBEC, maybe that's a problem area as well...
The drive belt is pretty loose, I don't think I'm loosing much power there.
I don't have a 10 cell pack available, or a wattmeter. They seem to run about the same price, I'll probably invest in the wattmeter here in the near future to check current draw, this game is getting really old! I like to tinker just as much as the next guy, but this really sucks! Any suggestions as to good wattmeters? I'd like one that can be used in the new t-rex as well.
- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

01-31-2006 Over year old.

Rob_T
Elite Veteran
Location: Tualatin, OR - USA

I use the Wattage D.C.M. (direct current meter). It's basically a clone of the Astroflight Whatmeter, but a bit cheaper at $50 at my LHS. It reads upto 60V and 99A (I've only ever used it upto 75A...)

Or for a bit more money see the USB flight data recorder. You can use this with the wireless down link (system cost about $410 with the electric expander) or without (cost about $210 with the electric expander). You can measure head speed, battery current, battery voltage, motor (or battery) temperature, and servo positions during flight and analyze the data later on a computer. It's easier to fit to an Eco but it will all fit on a Trex too. I know exactly what current my Trex takes while flying, the inflight battery voltage and head speed... (was surprised at how low the battery voltage is in flight!)

Rob
Eco8, Piccolo Fun, Shogun, HB Elite CP, Trex 450XL CDE, Swift

01-31-2006 Over year old.

windyone
Senior Heliman
Location: York, England

jrvander

What have you got your throttle high/low atv's set at? With a CC45 in governor mode you need to alter these to get the head speed you want. Let me know you ATV settings and then well take it from there.

Mick

01-31-2006 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

Tx settings

I had the following settings for my Tx
Throttle curves:
Normal - 0, 50, 75, 95, 100
ST1 - 90 on all five positions
ST2 - 95 on all five postions
(I set these to try to determine if I was maxed out before 100% by clicking back and forth and measuring head speed in each mode.)

Pitch curves:
Normal - 0, 25, 50, 75, 100
ST1 - 0, 25, 50, 75, 100
ST2 - 0, 25, 50, 75, 100

As for watt meters, I would like something that I can look at after a flight and scroll through the readings to corelate with maneouvers(x amount of watts at hover, x amount at full climb, ect.) Don't really need to download the info. Thanks!

-Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

02-01-2006 Over year old.

windyone
Senior Heliman
Location: York, England

jrvander

your pitch and throttle curves are fine.

Its the settings you have for your throttle ATV or end point adjustments I am after ie are they set for 100% ?.

What I found was that when I selected idle up 1 (95% straight line) the CC governor kicked in but the head speed was still too low. You need to increase your throttle ATV setting by a click at a time whilst you are airborne and you will see your head speed increase quite quickly.

I am running a AXI 2820/10, 5s lipo with CC60 ESC and 20t pinion. All the calcs should put the headspeed at over 2400rpm but it is actually runing at 1800rpm with the throtle high ATV set at 115%.

Hope this makes sense.

02-02-2006 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

Hmmm...

Ok, this may be a problem area, I'm not familiar with ATV settings. I'll have to do some reading on that subject before I send this motor to the flea bay. I use a JR 8103, the manual is about as user friendly as a tax code manual, but I'm sure some of the guys at the field will know more. Thanks for the guidance, I'll let you know what I find out tonight.

- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

02-02-2006 Over year old.

Rob_T
Elite Veteran
Location: Tualatin, OR - USA

ATV is the Futaba name. On the 8103 the screen you want says TRVL ADJ (travel adjust) at the top. You want to adjust the number in the top left (throttle +). You can only make this adjustment when the throttle stick is in the top half of its travel.

Rob
Eco8, Piccolo Fun, Shogun, HB Elite CP, Trex 450XL CDE, Swift

02-02-2006 Over year old.

windyone
Senior Heliman
Location: York, England

Thanks Rob_t. I should know better - I have a X3810 transmitter.

02-02-2006 Over year old.

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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Power problem on ECO 8

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