RunRyder - Correct flipping pullback (schedule A)

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > Correct flipping pullback (schedule A)

AlexV
Senior Heliman
Location: Moscow, Russia

How to execute subject correctly?

11-08-2005 Over year old.

GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Schedule A Pullback

In discussion, the first way is the way we have been told the maneuver should be. The flip should occur while traveling backwards like your "A" drawing.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

11-08-2005 Over year old.

Henrik Engert
Key Veteran
Location: Cedar Park, TX

If you watch the videos from Hirobo cup 2005 they do it like you A illustration.

http://www.tatsuoka.co.jp/gyro/index20051030.html

-Henrik

11-08-2005 Over year old.

jgoodsell
Heliman
Location: Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada

Witch video ?

I don't read that language

can you point one out...

I know they are all worth looking at but that peticular is intriguing me !

11-09-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

yapjy
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

I do it the "A" way but it's difficult to keep the flip in a straight line.

11-09-2005 Over year old.

Henrik Engert
Key Veteran
Location: Cedar Park, TX

There are many videos on that page that show the manouver.

11-09-2005 Over year old.

Clearance
Veteran
Location: Left Coast Canada

I maybe wrong, but I would recommend that more FAI pilots get a 50 size 3D heli (e.g., Hirobo Evo 50) and practice all the basics of 3D. You'll get much more air time in without the risk of dumping an expensive 90 size Competiton heli. For example, I find the pull back maneuver easy to do due to the fact I can do a reasonable flipping circle. All the 3D pilots like Curtis and Scot will find it so easy to do the new schedule compared to those who can't even fly around inverted.

Ken

11-10-2005 Over year old.

Spacey
Senior Heliman
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Definitely like in diagram A. I think the idea is to have the flip and the 1/4 loops all be one flowing manuver. I wish I could watch some of the videos posted above but my connection is just too slow to say if it's really illustrated well in there. The idea was never for the F3C schedule to be easy and it's definitely showing through this one. Like said above it's going to be very hard to keep the flip going in a nice straight line.

11-11-2005 Over year old.

MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: uk

Its not just flying inverted, mmmmmm

i like clearance speach " For example, I find the pull back maneuver easy to do due to the fact I can do a reasonable flipping circle."

made me smile, no offence intended, but reasonable does not come into it when fly at this level, it is either right or its wrong

this manouver is one of the hardest to do as no matter which way the wind is blowing it has to be the same speed that machine entered, and the flip has to be precise, so it is inverted by the time it reaches the centre of the box, and the approach and follow through have to be the same distance, the inverted part is only part of the manouver, if you mess that you may only loose 1 or 2 points, but if you are off centre when you begin, or you come out of the stall turn faster than you went in,
or you carry on further out on one side of the Box when compared to the other side, or you get the pitch timing wrong so the flip is too fast when compared with the rest of manouver, that is where the 1/4 and half points add up, to suddenyl before apilot knows it he has scored a 3 or 2,

i know this as i have judged f3C in the UK, there is so much more than just being able to fly upside down.

No diesrespect to clearance but there is alot more to this manouver than being able to fly upside down which in effect is only 1/4 of the entire manouver,

it is accuracy and style that you are marked on, not being able to fly inverted. which is what the 3D pilots will find hard, as this moves on from stick bashing!

it is controlled positioning inverted that counts, the flipping pull back has to be done at the same speed, and must be in the right position by the time the machine has reached the centre of the box,
something a 3D pilot will have to learn to do as it is more than stick bashing,

oh how i luv the 3D pliots saying that FAI is sooooo easy,

I bought my mother-in- law a chair for xmas, but she wouldn't plug it in

11-11-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Clearance
Veteran
Location: Left Coast Canada

Mspot 72,

I agree.

Been at the top as a FAI pilot at the national level long ago. Still spend 2 to 3 hours a day at it year round. Being competitive not easy. Few pilots appreciate what FAI fliers do to be competitive.

Ken

11-12-2005 Over year old.

Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

I can fly around inverted until the cows come home, and it still doesn't make the "plucking fullback" easy to do, or at least do EXACTLY per the maneuver description. As is so often the case with F3C, it's not so much about doing IT, but about doing IT as close to PERFECT as possible. If I had a purely 3D model to use for the aeros, it would be somewhat easier, but the fact is those of us besides Curtis have to have a model which will also park itself over a cone in the wind, and with that added stability comes a bit less ability to flip around on a dime. Timing is so very critical here. Do it right, and it's quite pretty. Do it wrong, and it gets damn ugly.

The inverted skills are far more valuble and helpful for things like the double flip w/ inverted push and the horizontal eight. We've been flipping in the cobra w/ half rolls for years.

Ben Minor

11-21-2005 Over year old.

Pete Niotis
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Haven MI, USA

Quote
As is so often the case with F3C, it's not so much about doing IT, but about doing IT as close to PERFECT as possible.

Has anyone noticed that 3D competition required/set maneuvers are more about technical difficulty and place much less emphasis on perfection? This might not be the intent of the 3D organization holding a competition but this seems to be the end result.

Often you see pilots performing these technical maneuvers and are barely recognizable as defined. I would like to see the 3D competitions emphasize quality first over technical ability.

Sorry to hijack post guys

The Flipping Pullback is a nice maneuver, not too difficult to do but extremely difficult to make look perfect as is always the case with F3C.

11-21-2005 Over year old.

Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Hey Pete,
Yeah I've noticed that, some of the maneuvers for next year's 3DM look pretty crazy and I'm not sure the ratio of perfect to 'just recognisable' is going to be all that good!

As you say, it'd be better to run an 'excellence' system rather than a 'just got through that' one

.

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington

11-21-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Pete Niotis
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Haven MI, USA

Quote
'just got through that' one

ROFL Si

11-21-2005 Over year old.

Pete Niotis
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Haven MI, USA

accidental post - sorry

11-21-2005 Over year old.

Augusto
rrAdvertiser
Location: San Diego, CA

Here's hashimoto doing that maneuver

It's a climbout then pullback backwards then flip and then pullup backwards and a descent.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate

12-11-2005 Over year old.

yapjy
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

I experimented over the weekend and found that adding some pitch to ailerion mixing will make the flipping pullback straighter.

12-19-2005 Over year old.

Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Yapjy,

Do you recall which ail trim error you were seeing which you able to consistently mix out? I'm interested to know.............

Ben Minor

BTW, nice post, Pete.

12-20-2005 Over year old.

yapjy
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

When I started out practising this, I had a tough time keeping the flip in line. For example, if I flip from the right to the left, the heli will always end up further away from me.

I guess it's because as I apply negative pitch and then positive pitch, the heli drifts to the left due to the changes in torque.

So I mix positive pitch to right ailerion (10%) and negative pitch to left ailerion (10%).

The result is excellent. Now I can spend more effort on making the flip travels in a level line while the mixing make sure it flips in a straight line.

12-20-2005 Over year old.

iyoy
Senior Heliman
Location: Bacolod City, Philippines

hi yapjy,

That happens to me too but also because the wind was a quartering crosswind from my right and from behind me. The entry was from the left, then past center to pullup on the right. Ont the way up on the vertical leg, I have to feed in a little right aileron and whatever rudder needed to keep the leg perfectly vertical in order to avoid drift. On the way down during the 'tailslide' portion of the maneuver, I maintain that slight angle in order to kep the heli from being blown away from me by the wind. The pullback and flip portion is then properly kept on track all the way to the tail up vertical portion on the left side. If you make the proper alignment and tracking during the entry, I find that no aileron or rudder is necessary to keep the flip in line.

iyoy

01-02-2006 Over year old.

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > Correct flipping pullback (schedule A)

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