jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)
| Sorry I'm late to this, but cleofe asks a reasonable question. Let's step through this carefully because if he has this on his mind, so do others. And I warn you, if you thought darkf8's response was long, wait until you read this 3300 word missive!
First, the Tiger 50 is available as a semi-kit for $284.99 or as an ARF for $299.99. The Raptor 50 is available on www.heliproz.com for $409.99 but this is available only as a kit, not a semi-kit or ARF. Our price is valid in a hobby shop while the Raptor is frequently more at a real store where you can get help and assistance - make your own judgment of the value of some timely help when you're a newcomer. Thus, there are about 10 more hours of assembly time involved on the part of the purchaser of a Raptor. However, since this is a hobby, let us not consider your time, or allow $0/hr as your pay scale.
The Raptor 50 is a nice model, I would never imply otherwise, but let's compare a few things.
1. In my opinion, the included muffler is worth very little. To say they're junk isn't valid, but they're not great and easily available for $35-40 (and far less used) because people quickly discover they simply are inadequate for even a standard OS 50SX . . . much less a Hyper!
Hence, if you believe it is free in the box, I have some ocean front property for sale in Arizona that we should get together to discuss! Thus, in reality, TT makes "everybody" buy a questionable muffler when they purchase a R50. By the way, here's some info about our optional muffler - PDR0053 ProMuffler link which goes for $74.99 . . . but if you are satisfied with the bogus Thunder Tiger muffler, add $35-40 to the price of a Tiger 50.
2. Carbon blades included. Folks, blades are a personal thing - kind of like whether you wear briefs or boxers, understand? Thus, to select a blade and force you to buy what I selected isn't my style or what we're about. In any case, you can buy Heliproz 600 mm G4 carbons for $54.99 and by most accounts they're superior, so add $55 to the Tiger.
We're at $380 vs. $410 . . . but price doesn't determine everything!
For example, a very well respected Raptor 50 pilot like Girard Ibanez says this about 3D-ing his R50 . . .
"I flew my R50 stock for a long time. Only upgraded what my skills demanded.
Aggressive flip rate - Green paddles
Backward flying - 3D horiz / vert fin
Inverted backward flying (blowouts) - changed GY-401 to GY601
Piro flipping / aggressive flying (improper collective management)
-JK pipe and metal head block."
While I cannot quote Raptor prices for these accessories, I can tell you this for the Tiger 50 by way of as comparison. . .
"Aggressive flip rate" - White paddles . . . FREE upon registration + PDR0071 3D urethane Dampers and PDR0069 3D Swashball kit (but read the rest of this before you hang us for making you buy this stuff because we come with a metal head black vs. the plastic one of a Raptor)
"Backward flying" - 3D horiz / vert fin . . . same or similar price
"Inverted backward flying (blowouts)" - changed GY-401 to GY601 - the same for us.
Piro flipping / aggressive flying (improper collective management)
- JK pipe and metal head block."
For the last, as I mentioned already, the Tiger 50 comes with a metal head block standard and you can give it Hell if you want without upgrading. There are plenty of videos demonstrating the Tiger 50 begin flown pretty hard. Our muffler at $74.99 is about half the cost of a JK and is pretty decent.
However, if you must account for improper collective management as well then we're working on a 6 mm kit which will include beefier grips, a 6 mm spindle, new bearings, new thrust bearings, and spacers as needed and I'm hoping to get the cost to registered Tiger 50 owners (one kit per registered helicopter) of as little as $29.99 - $34.99 . . . but bear in mind, all the videos of the Tiger on the website are of the existing setup with only 3D dampers and 3D swashball kit added! It's really pretty decent as supplied.
Hence, any way you cut it, the Tiger 50 is pretty much the equal of the Raptor 50 in flying. Where do we think we have it all over the Raptor 50?
Well, since you asked . . .
1. The Raptor uses 7-pushrods and 5-linkages just to connect the servos to the swashplate vs. 3-pushrods and 1-linkage! If you think you can have that many linkages and not have a corresponding increase in slop, you have another thing coming.
2. Someone alluded to the fact the Raptor is about 10 years old. You should see the inefficient fan included with a Raptor vs. our state of the art fan featuring airfoil blade elements!
3. The sheer fact we've made provisions for routing the servo wires makes for a far neater installation of servos and radio equipment on a Tiger, and there's a place for everything, i.e. governor too. You should see some of the kludges folks resort to with a Raptor.
4. The Raptor 50 comes with a wholly inadequate 330 cc fuel tank vs. the 440 cc fuel tank of the Tiger 50 and even including the 2 oz you "still" have an inferior capacity of 385 cc!
But wait, there's more too, because the Raptor hard-mounts their fuel tank to the plastic frames while the Tiger floats it in 4 soft rubber dampers to help isolate the fuel from engine vibrations. What are these features worth - especially since you can't get them on a Raptor at all?
5. Grab the swashplate of a Raptor and give it a twist. You quickly see why there's a "booming" market for aluminum swashplates for the Raptor. What a piece of . . . never mind!
6. Want to learn autos? With a Raptor, because of it's fully driven tail; you have no choice but to sacrifice the power from the main rotor blade system to drive the tail rotor. How much power? Well, take this into account. The tail rotor is close to 10" in diameter and turns at close to 10,000 RPM . . . take a model airplane engine and put a 9-10" prop on it and turn it at 10k RPM and it'll take a .25-.32 engine to do it (about 500 Watts)! Yes, it takes a significant amount of power to drive a tail rotor system!
Robbing power from the main rotor blades is fine if you're an expert, but for a beginner, I can assure you there will be more times than not when you'd rather have the extra energy in the system vs. having already used it up in driving the tail rotor . . . that's gotta be worth the cost of at least one crash, so consider adding that to the price of a Raptor!
Anyway, with the Tiger 50, an LSD is a mere $20 option and many expert pilots don't bother because they just don't want to sacrifice the extra power required for a driven tail. You can, after all, do without since you can steer with cyclic on the way down almost as well and not sacrifice too much energy. In any case, I suggest you learn autos and then add the LSD later it if you want.
But wait, I can already hear somebody say, "What about aerobatic autos?" You can do aerobatic autos nearly as well, but yes, you can do more yaw-oriented aerobatic autos with a Raptor's fully driven tail than you can with the Tiger's LSD tail - I'll give them that one - but the energy cost is still very, very high and really good pilots often chose not to get too aggressive with aerobatic autos with 50-class helis because of the decreased energy reserve in the main rotor blades as compared to a 90-class bird. In the Tiger 50's favor, however, is that suffering a tail rotor failure of some kind with the Raptor's fully driven tail may mean you can't auto safely, so that likely means another crash. In the end, we feel the differences in the types of driven tail are a wash because it's a matter of a different philosophy of design!
7. Ever suffered radio switch failure? It's a terrible feeling to watch a helicopter plant itself only to learn preventive maintenance might have kept it from happening in the first place. What do I mean? I, personally, throw away a switch on a heli every year (if it's been actively flown) because switches wear from vibration. Switch failure sucks! The Tiger 50 has a nifty little feature. The radio switch is isolated by a couple of little rubber grommets. Total cost is a few cents . . . and why all helis don't have them is a mystery to me! Nope, the Raptor doesn't have them either.
8. The Tiger has a very, very powerful 5.24:1 tail gear ratio which is really, really nice.
9. Designed with 3D from the beginning (3D, per se, didn't even exist as we know it back when the famous F3C pilot Mr. Taya designed the Raptor), the pitch range of the Tiger 50, at -15/+15 degrees is far greater than what's available with the Raptor.
10. Let's talk maintenance. Replace a tail output shaft on a Tiger 50 involves 3 screws and pull a side plate for access. With a Raptor it's pull the complete tail assembly and boom. Is your time really worth $0/hour?
11. Let's talk bearing width, i.e. on the main shaft in between the main frames. This is a hidden little detail that no Raptor owner is going to be quick to point out but the Tiger 50's bearings are wider and thus spread the loads onto the plastic frame better.
12. The Tiger 50 comes standard with a metal head block. When you read of a Raptor guy complaining on the forums that he has a shimmy and vibration he can't get rid of despite changing "everything" often the plastic head block is at fault.
On the plus side of the Raptor is they're everywhere - while on the negative side of the Raptor is . . . they're everywhere. Yes, some take offense to my analogy about sheep, but we all know it's true. In every group of people there are wolves and there are sheep (i.e. leaders and followers). I, personally, "like" something a little different from the next guy, but hey, that's just me! On the other hand, some folks can't make up their own minds and by default let the strong personalities at the field (or in their club) make it up for them (followers). You can't have leaders without followers of course and followers make up the vast majority of the population. Which are you?
Am I done? No, not really. Let's discuss something I've not brought up. The Raptor uses the old fashioned single servo per function system of controlling the cyclic and collective pitch while the Tiger 50 uses electronic CCPM. It's a philosophical difference between using mechanical linkages (and the extra slop inherent in it) vs. the electronics of the radios for the mixing functions of the cyclic and the collective systems. The old fashioned way has more parts and I come from the school that believes in KISS (Keep It Simple Silly). Thus, the fewer parts, the better (as far as I'm concerned). Of course, if the transmitter fails on either one it's go find a bag in which to put the pieces. I'd rather put my trust in electrons vs. complex linkages!
Of course, somebody will promptly chime in that CCPM is harder to set up. But I disagree . . . these are the steps for setting up a Tiger 50, or any CCPM helicopter (with slight variations).
a. Select HELI programming in the tranny (vs. AIRPLANE or GLIDER).
b. Select SWASHPLATE MODE (SW3 or whatever it is in your brand of radio system).
c. Set servo REV or NOR, i.e. the direction of throw for each servo.
d. Select a 20 mm servo arm for the two aft servos and 23 mm for the forwardmost servo and install the metal ball on each. Now center each servo arm as close as you can when the radio in Idle Up 1 and the joy sticks are mid-way in their travel, i.e. at mid-stick (this corresponds to 0 degrees). Do this as perfectly as you can . . . go through several different servo arms until you're sure you've done the most perfect job you can. The goal is to make sure the linkage rod will form a perfect 90-degree angle to the servo arm at mid-stick to prevent adverse differential (more throw in one direction vs. the other).
e. Use as small an amount of SUB-TRIM as necessary to make each servo arm as perfect as you can.
f. Leaving ATV alone at 100%, go to the PITCH CURVE function and using a Pitch Gage, set the high and low ends of travel (still in IDLE UP 1) so you have -11, 0, and +11 degrees of pitch. In NORMAL, I recommend the same curve until everywhere from hover (about 5/8 stick) on up and below hover point, go to -5 degrees of pitch. Ditto for the HOLD condition. Some folks have the same curve in both modes and just vary the throttle curve. IDLE UP 2 is pretty much the same as IDLE UP 1 except as noted below in step i. below - but only because I'm experimenting right now.
g. Set the THROTTLE CURVE. Because WIDE OPEN THROTTLE is also max pitch, the strength of the engine plays a role in the previous step because max throttle may, or may not, be enough for 11 degrees of COLLECTIVE PITCH. Go back to step f. if necessary after test flights.
h. Set up your GYRO. I prefer the stick to turn heading hold on and off instead of flipping a switch - and I use heading hold all the time in all modes.
i. Set up your GOVERNOR. I don't like to have to remember a switch so as with the gyro I prefer to turn it on and off with stick position. Hence, it's set to cut in after about 20% stick in NORMAL (and turn off during HOLD of course) and on all the time in IDLE UPs. I use 1700 RPM for normal, 1910 RPM for IDLE UP 1, and have recently been screwing around with 2000 RPM for IDLE UP 2 (with the exact same pitch curve as IDLE UP 1 except it's slightly decreased at the top and bottom because the engine simply won't pull as much pitch if I want a higher head speed, naturally). I haven't decided if I like the higher head speed, but like I said previously, I'm still experimenting and the jury is still out. By the way, the Tiger has a slightly higher 8.9:1 gear ratio (for when you're setting up the governor) vs. the Raptor 50 8.5:1.
As you can see, other than step b. all other steps are pretty much the same for conventional vs. CCPM. If that extra step is too much for your brain, then yes, I guess CCPM is harder to set up. On the flip side there are a lot more linkages to build and maintain. You pays your money and makes your choices! I suspect the old saw about CCPM being harder was first given birth by a smart marketing-type at a company without a CCPM offering in their lineup.
Furthermore, CCPM is a team style of design. For example, for a strong collective response from a Raptor you must use an 80 or 110 ounce servo, or it'll be weak. With CCPM, because three servos share the loads, you could easily get by with three servos of a mere 40 ounces - and exceed the performance of the Raptor! In fact, I know of some expert pilots who are using three S9254 servos - yes, the ultra high speed tail rotor servo included with some GY-401 gyro packages (since they're available in multiples for pretty cheap). Yes, they use them on the swashplate because at 50 ounces each, they combine to deliver 3 x 50 ounces = 150 ounces of performance while giving you lighting-quick 0.06 sec transit times! Talk about superb tick-tocks and other transitory maneuvers . . . try that with an old fashioned Raptor.
It's also worth noting that no Raptor (of any size) has ever won a US National Championship (neither has a Tiger 50 of course, though typically 90-class birds are what compete at that level). However, it's also a fact that a non-CCPM machine hasn't won the US Nationals in probably 5 or 6 years! Also, expert pilots flying Miniature Aircraft and other CCPM machines talk about the improved collective feel of a CCPM bird vs. an old fashioned conventional design. The extra slop and decreased servo performance is probably what they're referring to and likely the reason the Tiger 50 is becoming increasingly popular as a "beater" with high-end machine pilots as it shares the CCPM feel. Someone will likely point out the Worlds have been won by non-CCPM Hirobos recently, but those helicopters bear very little resemblance to anything mere mortals can afford (or would contemplate flying as a routine thing)!
Face it, when the Raptor was designed Intel's Pentium II 100 MHz was the top dog. PCM 1024 was still pretty new as were heading hold gyros, and governors and digital servos were mere fantasies in the heads of pilots smoking crack - but wait, did they even smoke crack back then. Anyway, do you seriously think helicopter manufacturers have stood around with their thumbs up their . . . noses . . . after all these years?
Ask an objective pilot and he'll say the Tiger 50 flies nicer and tracks through maneuvers better, hovers smoother and is more stable, that it's easier to maintain, and it's cheaper - so by any reasonable standard, it's just plain better.
Against that you have people who don't like change, or who have an unreasoned position, i.e they are afraid of even looking at other products without the filter of fear of something new! You know, I really only get frustrated when non-thinkers and small-minded people discard the very idea of something new as being viable. In fact, for all I know these may well be people who may have Raptor tattooed on their behinds. And yes, I predict there will be a certain percentage of folks who will read this last sentence and proudly thump their chests about their Raptors (i.e. the type of cretin, or non-critical thinker, who tends to just get loud during a discourse in a feeble attempt to influence an argument where they can't marshal their facts . . . and are darn well proud of it too).
Raptor vs. Tiger? All I can say is use your judgment . . . and don't let someone else do your thinking for you!
John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models |
), a full English manual, customer service that is exceptional for this industry, continuing improvements in design that aren't just flashy looking parts. John actually tests this stuff. He just released a new muffler to compete up against the JK pipe, KSJ Hyper pipe and others and he outlined the whole proto-typing process for people to see what goes into it. He went through several dozen versions to come up with the best design.
