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Fast Lad Performance . Ace Hobby . Esprit Model

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Bergen R/C Helicopters > Tail setup w/ 401 and 9254 servo on Bergen Heli's
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

I have been asked to post this setup after some have been having difficulties with hot servos and loss of tail control. This may or may not cure everyones difficulties, hot servos may need to be sent in to be looked at by Futaba.

Start in your radio. Turn off all mixes, 0 out all subtrims, set stick trims to neutral. Anything that can affect how the tail operates should be shut off or neutralized. Some radios come with these things turned ON by default.

Turn your radio on, making sure the switch that you use for turning heading hold on and off is set to ON. The Gyro must initialize in heading hold.

Turn the helicopter on, looking at the gyro. When the light stops blinking and goes steady red on, then the gyro is initialized properly.

Now turn the heading hold function OFF, using the switch that you designated on your radio. The light on the gyro will go off.

Look at your servo, . Using the smallest wheel that comes with the servo, ball installed per the instructions in the manual, set the ball either straight up, or straight down as shown in the picture. Install the servo screw. Double check that the servo screw is installed.



The ball on the tail bellcrank should be in the inner most position.


Looking at the tail pitch slider, it should be centered by adjusting the length of the carbon fiber pushrod.


Now give full rudder stick deflection, checking that the throw is equal on both sides. If it bottoms out in either direction, reduce the travel amount on the gyro. If the throw is not equal on both sides, ensure the slider is centered (adjust the pushrod), and setup in the radio is as described above.

Now adjust the travel amount on the pot on the gyro itself to between 100 and 120. On my Turbine I have it set at about 115. This should give full travel on the slider without binding at the gearbox or tail hub.

Set the pirouette rate (how fast it spins) in your radio using the rudder ATV. Start at 80% and work your way up.

Set the gyro gain at 80% in heading hold, 70% in non-heading hold, to start with. I have been able to get as high as 110% on my gasser using the green anti vibration gel from Zeal.

Check servo direction and gyro direction before flying, it gets real exciting when it's backwards!

After getting the engine tuned in close, and the main blades tracked, hover the heli with the heading hold turned OFF. The heli will probably drift one way or the other.


To trim out this drift, DO NOT adjust the carbon fiber pushrod. Instead, adjust the length of the plastic ball links between the pitch slider and the tail blade grips. Turn them both equally to maintain tail blade tracking. When the drift is trimmed out, turn heading hold on and go fly!! The tail will be locked in, and should not overheat the servo.

Chris Bergen
09-01-2005 06:45 PM
 
 
RussR
Senior Heliman
Location: Tampa, Florida

Great Post Chris - this should help quite a few people!


Russ
09-01-2005 06:57 PM
 
 
gyan
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, BC Canada

Chris you forgot to mention that the manual is wrong when talking about the push /pull upgrade option. The servo rods should be installed on the outer pivot arm holes & the push/pull rod to the tail should be on the inner hole. This allows one to reach about 100 on the gyro travel limit setting.

When are the new manuals coming out anyway? I understand you have some people working on them.
09-01-2005 07:03 PM
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

I didn't forget anything. Notice there was no mention of the push pull as this requires a whole different setup and different procedure.

This is a start to get the information out as quickly as possible, or would you rather wait until all the information is compiled and sorted, sent out for proofreading, changed, resent out, then disseminated to all who I think needs to have a copy.

If you want to wait for that, don't look in here, cuz this is where it'll be seen first.

Chris Bergen
09-01-2005 07:48 PM
 
 
Tristan Buhler
Senior Heliman
Location: SLC, Utah

I have the same 401 and 9254. And this set up works great. I had gary help me out with it, no servo overheating, smooth control, and a little more battery life. Thanks Chris for posting this on the internet. Even thought Gary helped me out, I know all of bergen had a part in these great machines.

Tristan Buhler
09-01-2005 10:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gyan
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, BC Canada

Great thanks for pointing that out Chris. Could we have the one for the push pull setup then? Pretty please ??
09-01-2005 10:09 PM
 
 
Bergen50UK
Heliman
Location: West Midlands UK

Great post Chris - useful info if I switch from CSM to Futaba gyros However what I would like to know is would you recommend using the tail links to stop drift rather than adjusting servo push rod on all Intrepids, Nitro as well as gasser and with CSM gyros.

I'd also be interested in info on push-pull upgrade setup as I've got one to do.
09-02-2005 03:05 PM
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Yes, I do recommend adjusting the tail links instead of the pushrod for all gyro types and birds.

Think of it this way, if the pitch slider is centered when the servo is centered, you have equal throw both directions.

By adjusting the tail links, you put in the required pitch on the tail blades to maintain a hover. To pirouette nose right, you need more pitch on the tail blades, which you have available. To pirouette nose left, you need less pitch on the tail blades, which is what you will have with this setup, but the amount of throw and pirouette rate will be the same in both directions.

We have been able to live with a less precise setup in the past, but with the precision that the "new" gyros and especially tail servos give us, it is more critical to have a proper mechanical setup to allow the gyro's and servos to do their job properly.

I will work on the push pull setup also.

Chris Bergen
09-02-2005 03:21 PM
 
 
Bergen50UK
Heliman
Location: West Midlands UK

Cheers Chris

I've upgraded all my CSM gyros to the latest software so I've a few setups to do starting with my Intrepid 46 which I'll try this weekend with that method ( assuming it drifts that is )
09-02-2005 03:33 PM
 
 
RV-4Mike
Senior Heliman
Location: San Diego, Ca.

I've recently gotten back to flying my EB after a long lay off. I'm having a problem with heading hold. I've been through the setup that Chris described, but it hasnt resolved the problem. Gyro/servo combo is a 401/9254.

After setting the linkages in rate mode as Chris described, going to heading hold results in a slow drift to the right of about 3 - 5 degrees per second. I've tried all sorts of gain settings right up to 100% with no success. There doesnt seem to be any sort of binding or jamming of the linkages - it operates smoothly throughout the range.

The only mechanical thing I can see that could be an issue is a tiny bit of slop in the pitch mechanism. I posted about this a month or two ago and the conclusion of those knowledgeable here on RR was that the amount of slop I was seeing was normal.

The other thing I notice is that I dont get a smooth movement of the TR servo when I move the rudder stick stop to stop. The servo seems to step rather than smoothly moving. This stepping action is very noticeable at the pitch slider. Is this normal for the 9254? The 401/9253 I have on my .30 Caliber doesnt do this. Both the servo and gyro have been swapped but it continues to operate like this.

All suggestions welcome.
09-06-2005 07:55 PM
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Any notchiness in the servo is cause for replacement. It should be smooth as a baby's butt. It's the first sign of a servo going south (and maybe the only sign)............

It's hard to verify, but smoking the servo once may lead to future problems, even after finally setting it up properly. Kind of like running the engine lean one time, then richening it up. The damage is done.

I believe Gyan may have fixed his problem by changing the servo, he's probably waiting for me to give the setup procedure for the push-pull tail as we type!! (working on it, gotta get the pics taken). Point is, you won't know 'till you try with a new servo AND the proper setup.

Didn't I look at your tail box and fly it on our bird? I don't remember what we did to it, if anything.

Do you get smooth movement in the servo without the pushrod hooked to the servo wheel? Watch carefully as the notchiness may be magnified with the pushrod installed, and very subtle with it removed.

Chris Bergen
09-06-2005 10:06 PM
 
 
gyan
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, BC Canada

Yup Still waiting !! (but can't LOL)
09-06-2005 10:13 PM
 
 
fitenfyr
rrProfessor
Location: Port Orchard, Washington

Servo horn length.

Chris,
That is a great setup post. I never thought about those links for adjusting the tail. I will from now on...

Just one question though how "short" should that ball be from center?
I have always put the ball about 10mm or more from center on the servo to increase the resolution. It has worked on all my ships with tail boom mounted servos and so far the Bergen seems ok with that.
I am going to try this setup though and see if it "locks" the tail in better as I do have a slight bit of drift.

Also the new collective servo stoppe that bobbing I was telling you about.

Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...
09-07-2005 04:58 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Jason,

Whatever it takes to get between 100 and 120 on the 401 gyro. If you can feel the difference in resolution between 6mm and 10 mm, you should be using a 611 Gyro!!

Chris Bergen
09-07-2005 02:31 PM
 
 
RV-4Mike
Senior Heliman
Location: San Diego, Ca.

Chris,

The ball on the servo arm is 10mm from center. The 401 limit is set to approx 110. There is no binding on either end of the pitch slider at full travel. The slider is smooth and friction free throughout it's range. I've tried 3 different 9254 servos (2 of them brand new, fresh out of the packaging) and all have the same ratcheting or as you called it "notchiness". It is more apparent at the pitch slider just because it is easier to see, but it is visible at the servo with the pushrod disconnected. I conclude that either this is a "feature" of the 9254 or I got a bad batch of servos (though they werent all purchased at the same time).

The 9253 that I had on the heli when I first built it never did this. I dont know if this "notchiness" is contributing to the problem I'm seeing with heading drift or not. I have a spare Hitec digital servo that I'm going to try this afternoon. It doesnt have the speed of the 9254, but I've installed it and checked it on the bench and it operates smoothly.

No, you didnt check out my tail gearbox. I had a question regarding how much slop was tolerable in the slider assembly a couple of months ago. Mine had quite a bit of slop. I was able to eliminate some of that by disassembling the slider and doing some filing to remove some slack in the bearing. After this was done consensus opinion on RR was that what remains is pretty typical and shouldnt cause a problem. All the slop that remains is in the ball/socket joint.

I still have some vibration in the heli (the bottom of the vertical fin buzzes some) and this may be the culprit with the heading problem, or at least a contributing factor. Dont know if the vibes are an engine tuning issue or not. I have the low needle adjusted just to the point where it stops 4 stroking. Cant punch the throttle to adjust the high needle because the tail wont hold until I can get this gyro issue settled.
09-07-2005 08:58 PM
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Sorry, I was thinking of someone else's gearbox, my BAD.

Where is that original 9253 if it was working fine before?

Are your servos getting hot?

If the pitch slider is smooth from end to end and you can "see" the notchiness in the servo, why is this a heli problem?

Anything is possible with servos, others are having difficulties on other heli's also. Have you sent any servos to Futaba, and what was their response?

What tail blades are you running?

Chris Bergen
09-07-2005 10:13 PM
 
 
RV-4Mike
Senior Heliman
Location: San Diego, Ca.

Chris,

When I originally built the heli I cannabalized servos from my Caliber (including that 9253). I later bought all new servos for the Bergen and bought a 9254 rather than a 9253 for the tail at Larry's suggestion. He said the torque of the 9253 may be marginal for the EB. So the 9253 went back on my Caliber 30.

Guess I need to clarify. The Bergen has always had an issue with heading drift from first flight to present. When I say the 9253 didnt do this, I mean it didnt display this notchiness, but the heli did have a heading drift problem with the 9253 on it as well.

I dont have any sort of temp indicator, but the servo doesnt feel hot to touch after flight.

Clearly the notchiness is a servo problem, not a heli problem, but I dont know if it's the cause of the heading drift. Since the heli had the drift problem with the original smooth 9253 on it I assumed not, but that might not be correct since I've resolved some of the other issues I previously had (slider sticking due to dirt; slop in the slider assembly). If I were to put a smooth servo back on it now it may work fine. Or I may still need to work on getting some more of the vibration out of the airframe.

No, havent contacted Futaba about these servos. Since all 3 show the same behavior I wasnt even sure it was a real problem or maybe just some weird trait of this particular servo.

Tail blades are the stock blades that were shipped with the EB. No identifying markings on them so not sure what they are.

Thanks for the help. I hope to fly it a little later today with a smooth servo and see if that helps. I'll let you know. This heli sure provides an opportunity to learn a lot.
09-07-2005 11:59 PM
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

The stock tail blades are 95 mm. If running a very low headspeed, say lower than 1450, you may need more tail,( we can always use more tail ) Low tail authority may be the underlying cause for your troubles.

just a thought,

Chris Bergen
09-08-2005 04:23 PM
 
 
Gary Travis
Veteran
Location: Utah

More tail HMMMM!!!!

Bergen R/C Helicopters Duralite Batteries V-blades Magnum Fuels Wren Turbinesl
09-08-2005 04:26 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RV-4Mike
Senior Heliman
Location: San Diego, Ca.

Chris,

Thanks for the feedback. The heli flew much better yesterday afternoon. I installed a Hitec 5945MG digital servo that I had laying around in place of the 9254. I also changed the 401 mounting to try to isolate vibes a little better. Not sure which of these changes accounted for the improvement. I need to get more vibration out of the heli if possible.

Current headspeed is 1450 (per Larry's recommendation) using a GV-1.
09-08-2005 06:22 PM
 
 
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Bergen R/C Helicopters > Tail setup w/ 401 and 9254 servo on Bergen Heli's
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