RunRyder - tail hub keeps shearing bolts

rrTV-PHOTO

New HD TV

HOME rrTV-PHOTO GALLERIES MY GALLERY HELP-FAQ

myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 383 ONLINE 72 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER START HERE

2 pages [ << < ( 1 ) 2 NEXT >> ]

2152 views

POST REPLY

A Main Hobbies	.	Boca Bearings	.	XHELI.COM
	.		.

e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > tail hub keeps shearing bolts

windyone
Senior Heliman
Location: York, England

Hi. This is starting to drive me nuts. For some reason (unknown!) every other time I fly me ECO8 the tail blades and holders decide to part from the heli. When I recover things I find that the bolts that hold the tail rotor blade grips to the tail rotor hub have sheared off. Anyone have any ideas?.

Tail rotor blade holders are an upgraded CNC unit with thrust bearings in but apart from this they are identical to the stock plastic ones.

Mick

07-16-2005 Over year old.

TMorita
Senior Heliman
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

The "slop" in the stock tail blade holders are there for a reason.

It allows the the tail blades to flap, which, in conjunction with the delta-three angle, allows the tail blades to automatically compensate for the dissymmetry of lift in forward flight.

When you use a third-party "upgrade" which remove all the inherent slop, it prevents the flapping from occuring. This places a large amount of stress on the tail blade holder screws and forces them to flex back and forth, which results in eventual failure.

I would recommend switching back to the stock parts, and be sure to fully screw in the tail blade holder screws, then back them out 1/8th of a turn. This will allow enough slop to allow the tail blade holders to flap properly.

This info is covered in the EHBG.

Toshi

07-18-2005 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

tail rotor slop

Hello all!
I just managed to get my Eco flying today after alot of trial and error, flew like a champ for about 5 minutes until the tail disintergrated right in front of me in a hover at 4 feet. Only cost me a main shaft, feather shaft, tail blades and tail grips, lucky I guess.

When I was re-building it, I noticed that when I was screwing the new tail grip bearing into the hub, there's a little play even when fully seated and tightened down. Both sides are like this, and the remanants of my old tail set up had some play in it as well. I followed the instructions very carefully, and I used the proper screw length.

My question to anyone who can help - is this slight play normal for vibration dampening? Or is this what destroyed my last tail? What can I do to improve it? i was thinking of an o-ring fitted over the cone of the tail hub where it connects to the grip. this would allow some flex and still give a good grip and reduce some of the play that I think caused my last flight failure.

Also, I was told that thrust bearings are a required upgrade here - can someone give me a parts list for the Boca site? Many thanks to all in advance!

- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

11-14-2005 Over year old.

Brett Sumpter
Heliman
Location: Roswell, GA

As Toshi pointed out there's supposed to be some play there.

I haven't upgraded to thrust bearings yet, but I also don't run very high headspeed - about 1400 rpm. I probably should, it really isn't a great design not having them there from the factory - it's been a while since I checked them carefully, this is a good reminder

11-14-2005 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

tail blade slop

Ok, I'll try it again, but that slop makes me nervous! I have this inherent need to remove all slop!
I was turning about 1800 rpm, too fast. I knocked it down a few teeth on the pinion gear, we'll see what happens this weekend. By the way, what is EHBG? thanks!
- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

11-15-2005 Over year old.

Toolman
Senior Heliman
Location: London

I wasn't happy with the 2mm bolts holding the grips on, as I have had bad experiences with tail rotor failure on other heli's.

I simply drilled the hub through 2.5mm & tapped a 3mm thread. To use a 3mm bolt you need different bearings, I used 2-off per grip taken from my old Kyosho Concept EP. I don't know the size or p/n sorry, but they are the same OD as the Ikarus ones with a 3mm ID.

Tim.

11-17-2005 Over year old.

Bill Collins
Senior Heliman
Location: Middletown, CT. U.S.A.

EHBG=Electric Helicopter Beginner's Guide.
I have to know. Is there a reason you need to modify the heli? I had an eco 8. The only upgrade I did to it was the ccpm swashplate. When I crashed it, I replaced the side frames with the aluminum ones. I used the stock brushed motor and a 10 cell battery until I had money to buy a brushless and a lipo. After the brushless upgrade, I still flew it with the "stock" tail parts and non hardened mainshafts. I did do the mixer upgrade as well from dream-models. I never had a problem flipping and rolling it after that. I had a 24 tooth pinion on the brushless and whatever gear it came with for the tail drive. Never did I have any of the problems stated here. I had NUMEROUS flights on my parts. Once a day for about 6 months, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. EVERYDAY. My point is this, the heli flies fine in basically stock form. Do the CHEAP and FREE upgrades to MAXIMIZE available control. All the "Bling" doesn't make you a better pilot. In my opinion, it makes you scared to try new things for fear of breaking your expensive parts. Do I recommend parts that FUNCTION? Sure do. The ccpm swash was the best part I ever bought for the heli. Did I sell it after I stuffed the thing into the ground? Yep and it still worked perfectly. Did I sell the tail setup after the same crash? Yep. And It still worked (minus the bent shaft.) No offense to anybody, but you guys remind me of some of my racing buddies. Always had to have the trick of the week. I was out there doing the SIMPLE free and mostly free stuff that works. Week after week, I would whoop them. Knowledge is power (and it saves money!

) Good luck and happy flying. Bill

I'm making my way back........

11-19-2005 Over year old.

Hobbywood
Senior Heliman
Location: Kerikeri Northland New Zealand

Stock ECO

I'm with you Bill. My normal Fly is a bog standard Eco 8, apart from an AXI 2814/10 (cheap), and Ikarus Carbon Blades (Not bad). The tail is all plastic as are the frames. I don't even have the boom braces and the heli flys great. Does everything I want and goes like a rocket on 9 or 10 3300 nimh cells.

I do have one all blinged up that was a 2nd hand bargain, you know the one you can't turn down. It doesn't fly any better for all the carbon and ali. I,ve never had a tail failure on either model except when I hit the ground and although I do check them over from time to time I have never found a part that looked like failing. I think the models now are being pushed well beyond the design limits. If you want to fly with a 2500 head speed and multi flips and extreme 3D then buy a logo 10 or 14 carbon that is built for it, but it will cost you more for Motors Batteries, Radio gear etc.

Pay your money and take your choice.

electric chopper nut (bit mad actually)

11-20-2005 Over year old.

heli_madken
Senior Heliman
Location: Liverpool, England

Powerful stuff and I am damn certain you are both right, stock parts fly great and in a competent pilots hands the heli can do all manner of fantastic things. But you know part of the attraction of this hobby is pushing to achieve something more. Sure a lot of the time it all goes ape and you are no better off having spent a fortune, but nothing can match the satisfaction of that smooth hover, responsive stick or phenomenal climb rate. It strikes me that there are two types of people in this hobby, those that just go out and fly and get huge satisfaction in beating their heli around the sky like a demon and the other who likes to 'tinker' and make something unique or just simply improve on stock.

Whichever is correct, each to their own. I think the beauty of this forum is learning off each other, I know Bill has helped me in the past and without your knowledge I would have struggled, so please dont discourage anyone from applying upgrades its all part of the fun even if it doesnt make any sense at all from a dollar perspective, or even performance, at the end of the day it helps increase an understanding of what is quite a complex little piece of machinery

11-21-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Brian Bennett
Key Veteran
Location: Dugway/Tooele UT, USA

1. So named "slop" is normal just like an Evo 50

2. Use Hardened alloy 2 mm bolts 12.9 rated. Mcmastercar.com carries them.

3. Change out the hardened bolts if you dig the tail in the dirt or drag it at the bottom of an auto. I do them twice a season needed or not as the package ships with 20 per.

4. The stock tail is fine, holds great even with stock plastic blades. If you run over 1600 rpm on the mains install thrust bearings in the tail blade grips. The part number F2-6 from Bocabearings.com. You will need to use longer than stock hardened 12.9 2 mm bolts to accomodate the extra space needed for the thrust bearings. Just cut the 2 mm bolts, which come long form mcmastercar, to length which means just short of snugging up to the tail output shaft. You only want the hub's 1 setscrew locking down on the tail shaft not the tail-blade feathering bolts.

5. Run the thrust bearing upgrade in the head if you want to run headspeeds of over 1600 as well. Sorry for the requisite upgrade expenses but the heli was designed well before people were pushing 1900 + on a heli of this size.

6. Balance the whole tail assembly. Vibes will kill any heli.

Brian

Team MRC-Hirobo and Model Avionics Rep

11-21-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Bill Collins
Senior Heliman
Location: Middletown, CT. U.S.A.

Perhaps my statements could have been taken the wrong way. Not intended, so let me explain. There are those who haven't been pushed to their limits yet because they have too much time and money invested in their heli's. I wasn't trying to discourage anyone from upgrading. I was merely trying to point out that the stock setup works fine for what people are doing. If you have the money to spend, great. I get what I can from the factory setup. When I have exceeded the stock machine's capabilities, then upgrades are in order. I had MANY flights on mine with the stock tail. I never even replaced the tailblades. I have done everything that people here want to do and more, with the stock stuff. That's all I was trying to say. Now come on now, atb...... Did you roll it yet?

I'm making my way back........

11-21-2005 Over year old.

Hobbywood
Senior Heliman
Location: Kerikeri Northland New Zealand

I also like upgrades and bling with the best of them. I just doubt that it flys better in every case. I can't tell the difference between the blinged eco and my stock one.

Just to prove I like the bling not only does one of the ecos have every ali or carbon (I LOVE CARBON) part going but I also have a Logo 14, all carbon or ali and a Joker. Look at them more than I fly them which I think could prove bill's point about the money aspect. The really expensive helis are far more competent than the Eco's but don't get flown as much. Scared I guess.

electric chopper nut (bit mad actually)

11-21-2005 Over year old.

atb
Senior Heliman
Location: England

Funny enough bill the weather has been s**t then it comes out nice and i flew the heli and guess what i decided i wasnt happy with the new tail setup (sab carbon 80mm tail blades) it just didnt feel right so i changed the tail back to stock.

wow im ready for my next trip to the flying field and it will inverted then all of those who want power in the tail if you set up your gyro/servo combination right you have more than enough power in there for anything the heli will fly in.

i worked out where mine was going wrong and it was that wasnt enough power getting to it using the bec put a 4.8v rx power pack in and the whole heli is awsome now.

also it puts a shed load of much needed weight in the nose i cant get over the difference that that has made. flight times havnt dropped at all (i think theyve actually increased) and it pulls the full +- 10.5 degrees at 1750rpm with absoloutly no bogging at all in all honesty ive now resigned myself to not altering anything else at all apart from the brass tail slider is worn so im gonna upgrade the whole unit to the ali one.

by the weekend ill have done the inverted and if anyone else is there then ill get them to take a pic for me to show you all

from that youll get yourself going if you want to get right up there and do death spirals etc get a raptor 90 or something and use a tool that was designed to do the job.

for those that like to tinker and try stuff out like me good luck and happy flying

does mine fly any better with the so called bling it sure does but i bet itd fly just aswell without most of it and a better pilot than I

atb

I lost 215 pounds on the eco diet in just 3 stick movements.

11-22-2005 Over year old.

Brian Bennett
Key Veteran
Location: Dugway/Tooele UT, USA

Adjust the CG properly, and it flies great inverted. Notice the stock tail:

Have fun with it ATB, just be sure to add the thrust bearings and change out those tail bolts at regular intervals!

Team MRC-Hirobo and Model Avionics Rep

11-22-2005 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

atb
Senior Heliman
Location: England

lap lap.... i cant get out of it now you got me mouth watering with that pic lol.

atb

I lost 215 pounds on the eco diet in just 3 stick movements.

11-22-2005 Over year old.

Chachin
Senior Heliman
Location: Cape Canaveral, FL

Hello,

Mine is pretty decked out spinning at around 1950rpms in the main blades. Upgraded to the boca thrust bearings and the hardened 2mm McMaster Carr bolts in the tail and have not had a problem (thank God). Quick video in this thread:

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t210744p1/

The other highly recommended option is the Eolo tail setup; with 3 bearings on each grip.

Chachin..

11-25-2005 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

Tail slop

Wow, I didn't think I'd touch off such a flurry of conversation, but thanks to all who offered up those pearls of tail rotor wisdom! LOL!

Ok, here's my setup:
Stock frame
aluminum frame brace - to decrease frame flex, per dreammodels
aluminum swash - was told it was stronger and more crash resistant
35t tail pinion - was told it made the tail respond better
aluminum tail slider - same as above
CF tail boom braces - same as above
carbon 470mm blades
mega 22/20/4 motor
3s2p duralites - (great customer support BTW, very happy!)

Thats about it. I'm new to helis and the pilots at the local field aren't very familiar with electrics (get a glow, son, you'll be much happier) so most of what i know of the Eco is found here on RR. I bought the frame brace, tail slider, swash and tail pinion on the advice of the guys at Hobby-Lobby, but otherwise it's stock.
I've resisted the urge(very proud of my self!) to buy the aluminum head, frames, etc. until I'm ready to fully exploit the potential of my Eco, espeacially in light of my frequent use of the dirt brakes.
I'm trying to avoid mechanical failure as much as possible by these upgrades more than increasing performance, and that last crash wasn't my fault, the tail just fell apart in mid-hover.
So, I'll check out the hardened 2mm bolts at the site Brian mentioned and hope for the best. Does anyone know where I can pick up a copy of the EHBG? I'll have a look on Amazon tonight. Mnay thanks to all those who are gracious in their giving of hard-earned knowledge!
- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

11-25-2005 Over year old.

Bill Collins
Senior Heliman
Location: Middletown, CT. U.S.A.

Dirt Brakes..... That is too funny!!!!!

I'm making my way back........

11-25-2005 Over year old.

litespeed600
Senior Heliman
Location: St. Charles, Missouri

http://www.swashplate.co.uk/ehbg-v16/ehbg_index.html

That's the new version (16) of the EHBG, what a weath of information. It seems as vast as the internet.

I just bought the Eolo triple bearing upgrade for my Fully blinged Eco since mine tail had the same "in flight" failure. I got lucky that it happened at about 6 to 8 feet up and it just pirated slowly and I was able to get it too the ground safely. I saw my wallet flash before my eyes!!! Here is that link just in case you want to do one better, IMHO! This thing is so smooth and slop free. I was afraid to take another chance on the 2mm screws since I already had a failure. I hate waiting for parts.

http://www.rchover.com/eolo_tuning_parts

Tom

I'm married so you know I am no stranger to pain!

11-26-2005 Over year old.

jrvander
Senior Heliman
Location: Mystic, CT

lost another one!

(I posted this in another thread as well)

I thought I had this one beat, but today just after lift off the Eco started to vibrate, then suddenly, POP! A tail blade flew over my shoulder and it started to howl. I was only 15 feet of the ground and managed to auto down to a soft damage-free landing.
For those who haven't been following the tail saga in this and other threads, I had a couple of tail seperations before when the stock radial bearing in the grip gave way. I considered several options including the Eolo triple bearing upgrade, the double radial bearing, and finally settled on the thrust bearing concept where you stack a 6x2x3mm thrust bearing on top of the radial bearing. Seemed to work really well until today.
The bearings didn't fail, the M2 hardened steel bolt broke off at the hub. The grip and hub itself is still perfectly intact. I'm wondering if the tail is just spinning too fast. The head speed is 1675 and I'm using a 35t drive gear; it will piroette (sp) like crazy if I give it full throw on the rudder.
I'm going to change to a 40t gear tonight and try again tomorrow and see what happens. I might even drill it out and re-tap it for M2.5 as one member here suggested in another thread.
- Jon

Celery raw develops the jaw, but celery stewed is more easily chewed!

04-02-2006 Over year old.

2 pages [ << < ( 1 ) 2 NEXT >> ]

2152 views

POST REPLY

Advantage Hobby	.	GrandRC	.	Revolution Models
	.		.

e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > tail hub keeps shearing bolts

UPDATE SCREEN PRINT TOPIC

Advertisers

Subscribe to This Topic