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Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

2 or 3 of the top uk pilots are using SAB 67.5 semi's i believe.



Tony
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Wind

To get a model to fly in the wind, you call Wayne Mann and let him set the model up with HEAVY blades and large amounts of noncorrecting delta (Hi, Wayne, I baiting you ).
To get a model to sit in the wind , the stars have to be in perfect alignment. Your flybar ratio has to be right to help correct, the damping has to be optimized, rotor rpm has to match all th elements of the head set up, and even then, the darned thing will still jump all over the place. At the 2001 US Team Trials, in a 30 mph wind, I was having the model jump up and down about a foot and thought I was doing a heck of a job holding it still. Curtis followed me in the same wind and his model was really jumping up and down.... about 2 inches. My model now has a completely different head, flybar ratio, flybar length, blades, paddles, since those days and now I'm down to about 6 inches up and down in a heavy wind. There's something to be said for reflexes and talent.
Set up helps and makes average pilots look better but a great pilot can beat you with a borrowed model, even when the set up isn't all that good. Curtis could beat me flying a T-Rex.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nighttrain
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisville KY

This is a great thred. Just don't answer any more of Bald Eagle's questions before the Natl.s. I don't want him to smart! Or better yet, tell him we're all putting our blades on backwards for neg uncorrecting delta and burning bio diesel 30%.......... Doug
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

i emailed Mark also requesting separate 3D and FAI sections so the information isn't spread out all over the place.

Gordie, if you don't mind, I'd like to copy all of your text and put into a nice FAI Primer/FAQ.

I've always wondered how to check cyclic pitch, though with the fly-bar lock.. MA has one that will allow you to lock the fly bar even if it's not right over/parrallel to the tail boom? The one I have from Robart only works if I have the fly-bar right over the tail-boom.

- Dan G. -
05-26-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

I just put a Word doc file in my Gallery of all the pertinent info in this thread. I edited it, spell and grammar checked it and re-formatted it. Enjoy

I'll be adding to it as Gordie and others spill their secrets

- Dan G. -
05-26-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

lol

Seriously, there are NO secrets. All anyone has to do is ask and most FAI guys will spill their guts. We LIKE talking about this stuff, it's what we do. I learned most of this stuff from Cliff and Wayne, but smatterings from Tom, Wendell, Paul, Ted, Curtis, Scott, Len, Larry, Don, David, Mark, and anyone else that would talk FAI in front of me. I learned a few things on my own, and they were hard won so I MUCH prefer asking someone that knows more than me, and there are many that do.
Like I said, have a question? Ask. If I don't know, I probably know someone that does know.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

questions are coming Gordie

I'm checking my Hawk Sport's cyclic throws right now....

Once I'm done getting the numbers, I'll post them and then see what, if anything I can do to get them more right.

As for asking people who fly FAI or 3D for that matter who have a good amount of knowledge, so far it seems my area is pro-deprived. So, I rake through the heli boards for usefull tid bits.

I also know a lot of guys, like Wayne, Jason Krause, Curtis, Szabos, etc don't frequent on here much and my getting face-to-face time isn't easy since the majority of fun-flys are several states away from me.

All the info you have is very appreciated. I'm learning

- Dan G. -
05-26-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Subtrims

I am a BIG proponent of mechanical set up perfection, or as close to it as I can get. One of the things that drives me crazy is the use of subtrims. If the model is mechanically set up correctly, why would there be subtrims in it? Futaba servo arms do not always line up exactly on the axis of the servo and a lot of people use the subtrim to center the arm on the servo BUT if you rotate the servo arm around on the splines, each arm lines up differently so you an FIND one that lines up exactly. It may take a couple of minutes extra, but you are keeping the servo directly in the center of it's travel which, theoretically anyway, should give the maximum results.
Now does this ACTUALLY make ANY difference, probably not much if any, but why take chances.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
bald eagle
Veteran
Location: detroit michigan

you better watch out nighttrain im comming to get ya i have been usings gordie info and some others to super sharpen my flying skills
i have employed mechanical engineers to rebuild my machine to a perfect model i have spent may hours of no sleep flying and flying to climb the ladder to beat you. this year i will come in second to last
(in a class of ten to twelve ) rung buy rung until i catch you.
you better keep an eye on me because in 12 to 16 years i will win
aaaaaahhhhhhhhh


see ya soon

ps thank you again gordie all the info has helped alot and any is very welcome


thanks jeff

doug you cant read anymore you are ban from this thread he he
05-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

I'm Curious

Has anyone redone their model setup? What do you think? Did it help?
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

i've been working on mine, obviously

I need to get some more Futaba arms, wheels and make or find a Gary Wright servo tool so I can get the linkage geometry as spot-on as possible on the Hawk

i'm hoping to go fly it today to see how things are...I'll report back with results later.

- Dan G. -
05-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Servo arms

Just a thought. Since servo arms have been mentioned, I always use the round servo wheels as they tend to be stiffer and less prone to breakage than the star arms. Over the years, I have broken nearly every kind of servo attachment in flight except the wheels. so I would recommend them for use in all models, F3C and 3D. As a plus, you can rotate the wheels on the servo splines until they line up exactly perpendicular to the axis of the servo or 90 degrees to the pushrod therefore requiring zero subtrim.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-31-2005 Over year old.
 
 
bald eagle
Veteran
Location: detroit michigan

ok i have to ask what is the master blade and would the other one be the bitch blade

thanks jeff
05-31-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Big Edge
Senior Heliman
Location: Palm Harbor, FL USA

I set up my Raptor 50 using GM1's info and I gotta say, it really improved the hover.

I had to make a new servo arm for collective because the Futaba star was giving me to much or not enough pitch range. I used the round wheel.
With the custom wheel I limited the pitch range to 21 degrees, +12 -9
I also had to set the end points on the collective servo to 110%.

I'm not doing any 3D stuff yet just loops, rolls, stall turns and basic stuff like that.

I like the setup, feels good!
05-31-2005 Over year old.
 
 
KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

good thread Gordie!

it does appear that the f3c schedule is asking for some stuff that is almost 3d now, if you guys were confronted with having to do 3d along with the current schedule, how would you go about setting up for that?

lets say for the sake of argument that inverted hovering isnt 3d, it hovering upside down. It seems no one has a simple explanation for what heli 3d is (Quique Somenzizi called airplane 3d "flying beyond the stall"...and it fits)....lets say for the sake of argument that 3d is all which cannot be passably done without heading hold (maybe include "that which requires no fins" heh heh)

so if a future event emphasized doing portions of aerobatic maneuvers backwards or sideways (i.e. doing the current schedule backwards inverted!), how would that affect your setup? would you mirror your outline or reverse where you try to balance the heli, etc, etc?...is there a pattern to how things are being done or is it just preferences.

its more of a curiosity, I don't see that fai would change the game that much that fast, but I think that it may come to something like that as we continue to push the limits of what can be done in the sky and figure how these things work!
05-31-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

F3C vs 3D

We, as F3C competitors, have been asked about going to a 3D format and the new schedules do have a more 3D flavor BUT the move toward this is fairly slow. Schedules are up for rewrite every few years, we have the schedules for 2006 and 2008 already done, and they are very tough, requiring both inside, outside, and inverted work.
I'm going to stick in an opinion here and want to emphasize, this is my opinion and noone else's so don't go flaming everyone else for this. There has been a lot of discussion about getting more participation in the AMA classes and F3C. One of the major thoughts was we have all of these terrific 3D flyers in the US that have unbelievable eye hand coordination and great spacial orientation. If we made the F3C schedules into a 3D format, all of these guys would flock to F3C and we would be able to bring the best flyers in the world to contest.
I have spoken to many of the top 3D guys in the USA and if you discount Curtis and Alan, we haven't seen a lot of these guys. Ask them and they will tell you that they are not even vaguely interested in competing. Now I have watched these guys at fun flys and they will go out one after another and do progressively more aggressive maneuvers to WOW the crowd so they ARE competitive and show it in their flying style BUT if you formalize the contest , the XFC in the US being the exception, noone shows, so there seems to be NO 3D contests, therefore there are no winners but also no losers. I don't know if that is why 3D is so popular, you cannot be placed in a hierarchy, at least in your own mind. I really have thought about this alot and might be completely wrong, completely right, or the truth somewhere in the middle. I wish I could figure out how to get these guys involved as they are terrific flyers and could be awesome in F3C.
I will be very interested in hearing everyone's take on this. Like I said, some fo these 3D guys are my good friends and can fly rings around me and would do really well in any competitive situation. I guess it could be the time required to go out and practice and learn the schedules is too much, the hovering maneuvers, though very tough, are not spectacular looking but require huge amounts of practice to be accurate, and everyone KNOWS what you are supposed to be doing so you cannot hide a mistake, but DANG!!!, these guys could be SO GOOD!
Anyway, as far as set up for a more 3D schedule: Since we have outside maneuvers coming in 2006, we are all going to be required to change the setup on our models. Where we now run something like -8/+12 we will need something like -10/+12 for the new schedules. I tried some of the new maneuvers with my sport model (-10/+11) and it worked OK. My current contest model (-8/+12) did not have enough negative pitch to make the model drive into a maneuver when inverted so I tried just overdriiving the collective to see if that made a difference and it really did so when I get through with this contest year, I will go back and completely redo my set up to include more negative pitch and make everything symmetrical, probably centered on +1 degree. I think my roll rates will have to increase also as some of the new maneuvers require more. I don't think anyone will continue to run semisymmetrical blades as they, at least the ones I have tested, have some unusual characteristics when G-loaded while inverted.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-31-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Personally I think that the new schedules will move the emphasis from the high dollar machines like the Sylphide and Caliber which have an emphasis on hovering well and perhaps move it to the more affordable machines such as the Fury's, Vigors and Raptor 90's.

I say this cause the new schedule has no k-factors for the hovering so the emphasis has now gone back to the aerobatics. All of the machines mentioned above I can get to do aerobatics just as well as my Sylphide.

This is a good thing cause it will remove the perception that you can only be competitive with a mega dollar Sylphide, Caliber or Eagle.

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington
05-31-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Kinger
Elite Veteran
Location: Columbus, OH

Great post Gordie. Personally, I'm not sure if you'll ever see a bunch of 3D guys going over to F3C flying no matter how aerobatic you make the schedule. Many folks just don't have the time or the desire it takes to learn the schedules and become proficient at it. With 3D a guy can basically fly a couple times a week and with the help of a sim become proficient enought to really enjoy himself at the field and maybe even impress some of his flying buddies. Maybe I'm wrong, but with F3C it seems like the time commitment would be MUCH higher if you wanted to really progress. Just my thoughts.........
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
MooneyDriver
Veteran
Location: Kent, Ohio

Gordie,

These are just my opinions... I got to the end of this post and considered dumping it, but here it is...

The first reason I believe there isn't a more loyal FAI following is that FAI is not known for fun. Just compare the events. Look at the expressions on the pilot's and judges' faces as they're flying, then go to a Fun Fly with a lot of good 3D pilots. Not only will you find smiles, but you'll find out-and-out hardcore belly-laughs.

I disagree a little that 3D is less disciplined, or requires less practice. Follow any pilot who is preparing for the XFC, whether they finish first or last, they're all out there burning cases of fuel. However, I think it is safe to say that winning the Nats requires burning more fuel than winning the XFC. Does that mean that FAI requires more discipline?

The nature of the flying... Which appeals more to the masses? That's a loaded question. I think the crowd gets more excited at the XFC than the Nats. However, look at the big Asian (FAI) events. They draw quite a crowd over there, don't they. Is it the flying, or the marketing? Hmmm. For those that attend these events, do the thousands of spectators enjoy the FAI competition or the 3D demo more?

Another thing that rather bothers me is the fear of changing the schedules and the general conduct of FAI competition. It reminds me of corporate America; Management by concensus/committee. If you want radical change and acceptance, you need radical change NOW, not in 2008! Think outside the bun!

Imagine a competition in which anyone at any level can compete. Pick manouvers from a "menu" and fly them. 3D pilots competing with FAI pilots? Scoring is based on not necessarilly the manouver, but how well it is executed. Classes are simply menus of FAI and 3D manouvers of similar difficulty. Add some level freestyle to this, and you have a formula for success. The XFC has both, and it really adds to the appeal.

Pete Noitis took a shot at having a 3D competition, but there was a notable lack of interest. Again, I think guys are a little intimidated by having to fly a predetermined set of manouvers. Allow them a more freestyle, open sequence and I'd expect better results.


forgive my rambling....

-Neil

Hey man, why does my lipo get bigger every time I charge it?
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
hirobo kc
Heliman
Location: Kearney mo.

i love all the info posted, now just to find the time to try all of it.

#1 what is the deal with the tapered shim that goes between the landing gear skid and the frames so you heli lifts off streight is this just bling or what?

#2 what do you do to trim out the heli that is slow rolling to the right in ff?

#3 is there any way to set up your servo arm mechanical 90deg on a ma extreme when using the recomended extra long jr servo arms (the wheel is not larg enough to drill at the recomended length)

thanks for all your time.
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
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