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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

FBaity asked:
1. Do most F3C flyers hover at 3/4 stick or 1/2 stick?
2. What RPM is used for hovering?
3. What RPM is used for FFF?
4.. Do most contest pilots used different set ups for windy conditions or just compensate with skill?

Hawk4flyer asked:

What type of pitch curve would be more appropriate for hovering manuvers?



As with everything, every F3C pilot does it a little differently for legitimate reason.
Most of the flyers I know hover at half stick and set the radio for a VERY linear feel up and down. In the new 14MZ I am using an "expo1" curve with just enough negative pitch to glue the model to the ground in the wind. I adjust the expo to get a "soft" feel right around center but enough available pitch to still hang on in the wind.
RPM is blade dependent. When I was using the High Products TZ91s, I hovered around 1390-1420. With the RotorTech 720s I currently use, I'm at 1450-1480.
In FFF I run 1950rpm on a 7.9 gear ratio. It's very calm and quiet in a hover but goes like stink upstairs and is pretty fuel efficient..
I do have windy weather adjustments. I can steepen my hover pitch curve at both ends to make collective a little more sensitive (on a rotary knob) and I have a dual rate set up (on a switch) only in hover condition and fly with it on in the calm and off in the wind to give me about 10% more cyclic, which is still VERY soft.
Most 3Ders that hovered my contest model, would think the radio quit .
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-13-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Thomas L Erb
Veteran
Location: Alliance ohio

Grodie Are you saying as far as your pitch curve goes you set the curve up mechanialy VERY linear with your hover pitch at half stick (about 4 degrees +or-) ? So what are you top and bottom pitches on average? and tell me the advantages of this set up verses max top and bottom with 0 deg at center and then just dial it out for the contest. Tom
05-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
FBaity
Senior Heliman
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL

Gordie,

A couple more questions:

1. Considering 1/2 stick in hover, are you in normal flight mode?

2. On a 60 size machine how much neg pitch do you have set up in hover?

Thanks
Frank
05-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Mechanical set up.

My model is mechanically centered on the center of the actual pitch range I am using. I figure out what max pitches I need and then figure the center and set that mechanically. For the current schedules I have -8 to +12 degrees so mechanically I am centered at +2 degrees. I use my computer radio to put hover at midstick. When I go into idle up, I go to a linear pitch curve centered on 2 degrees. 3D guys usually say they want to KNOW where zero pitch is. I don't give a rat's butt where zero is as I'm going to fly the maneuver SO many times, I will learn where I need to go to make the maneuver look good and be correct.
For the 2006 schedules we have several inverted maneuvers that will require a more 3D pitch curve, for me -10 to +12 so I will redo everything to center on +1 degree and use the radio to get what I need where I need it.
In hover (normal mode) right now I have -3 to +13 (I'm overdriving the top here to get a straight line, I NEVER get to +13 degrees but it makes the pitch curve "feel" linear) but I think Wayne uses just enough negative pitch to make sure the model stays on the ground when hovering in the wind. In my general idle up I have -8 to +10 and in hold -8 to +12.
Better or do we need more? I'm curious what Mark, Ben, and Wayne, have to say about their thoughts on this.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Ace Dude
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Thanks for posting, Gordie. I often wondered whether the F3C folks hovered at 1/2 stick or 3/4 stick.

So, do you have any problems adjusting when you go from a F3C setup to a 3D setup?

I learned to hover at 1/2 stick and it took me quite a while to get used to hovering at 3/4 stick.
05-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Helipilot01
Senior Heliman
Location: ColliervilleTn

The key to all of this is the one word…feel. If ½ stick is where you hover,and I do. Then the pitch range above ½ stick will be different that that below ½ stick. Why? Well,it’s all to achieve the feel that the model is performing without any differences where ever the collective stick is moved. Keep in mind the weight of the model is about 10lbs in hover. For our example let’s say it will hover at +4 deg. So at +4 deg there is enough lift from the blades to hold the 10 lb model in hover. It’s not climbing or descending. Moving the collective stick towards more positive pitch (Over +4 deg) is actually lifting that 10 lbs. Moving the collective stick towards less pitch, the models weight is actually contributing to is decent. It’s easy to see that there will be less pitch range below ½ stick than above. All of this has variables too. If you fly with thumbs only…it might be different than someone who flies with thumb and finger. Those that fly with thumb and finger are probably more accurate, but have limited movement on the sticks.

Just my thoughts

Mike Fortune
05-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

LOL, Actually no!

My 3D models hover at 5/8s stick, above half but not far enough above to make me uncomfortable. In idle up, it is -10 to +10 and I get a slight drop if I switch into idle up while in hover but it's minor and usually I'm climbing a little anyway so it is barely noticable. I frequently switch into idle up sitting on the ground for some type of 3D style take off. I just cannot make myself hover at 3/4 stick and really don't feel the need to. It makes sense to do it if you're a pure 3D flyer, but I ain't.
My F3C models are always climbing away from the box at 3/4 throttle when I click into idle up so you never see any change in the model, it just revs up and hauls butt. The hardest thing I ever did was switch from flying with my thumbs to my fingers and thumbs. It took me about a year to really be comfortable.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

I was very fortunate to have Scott Gray setup my Sylphide for F3C when he was here in Australia a couple of weeks ago.

The changes he made were to increase the headspeed from 1450 in hover to 1630. Put 70 dual rates in on the cyclic and softed the expo by 20%.

Increased idle up RPM to 2000 and introduced a small 6% elevator to aileron mix to get it to roll straight. The machine now flies a lot better now that I am used to it.

The hovering pitch curve is a straight line from about -5.5 to +8. Idle ups are -9 to +11 with auto being a straight line from full negative (-9) to +11.5 or so.

However perhaps the greatest input he gave was comments on my flying, what I was doing wrong, correcting me on misconceptions etc.

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington
05-14-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Tailoring

Scotty does a great job with his models as witnessed by his US Nationals win and his perpetual membership on the Canadian World Team. If you were to be able to get with several of the top flyers in the world, Scott, Curtis, Cliff, Wayne, Rudy, any of the Japanese Team guys, they would ALL set up a model that was exceptional and all would be different .
I have tremendous respect for all these guys and have watched them test and practice for hours. Wayne has his models set up as good as any I have ever seen and I have tried many of the things he uses and find them to be workable and I use them. There are a few things that he likes that just don't work for me so I go a different direction and use what feels right for my tortoise like reflexes and old tired eyes. I wish I had these models, set up this well, back when I had good reflexes. I might have been a real threat.
The setup that Curtis uses obviously works for him but, I think, he may be one of a few that can do what he does. He has exceptional eyesight (2500 ft aerobatics autos when I cannot even see the model) and catlike reflexes so he runs a very sensitive setup (by observation) and just flies the heck out of it. I cannot keep up with a model set up like that, so I am forced to let the model do most of the work.
Net result, borrow (steal) any set up thing that works and have fun.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-15-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Henrik Engert
Veteran
Location: Cedar Park, TX

Hi,

I have a Futaba radio (FF8) and I can do some mixing with it, but what would the following do for me:

Quote 
introduced a small 6% elevator to aileron mix to get it to roll straight


How does that mix work?
05-15-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Heli88
Key Veteran
Location: Clarkston, MI

Simon...will you please tell us more about the aileron>elevator mixing.
05-15-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heligoole
Veteran
Location: yorkshire,uk

i hover 3/4 stick now as i advance into 3d..i find that as i get used to it i can still hover profficiently at this.The added bonus is whilst circuiting the negative(bottom half of stick)is very useful....not just for stall turns etc but also to achieve quick height control..especially on those very windy days also pins model to ground on those tetchy nose in landings/takeoffs
05-15-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Up until the past few months, I had always set my models up with about 8 degrees of negative and 11 to 12 degress of postive pitch. I then let the model hover where it wnated to with a headspeed of 1450-1490. Coming very soon now is the new 2006 FAI schedule which will incorporate multiple outside and pushing maneuvers that require at least 9 degrees of negative to get the model to "dig" when climbing back up inverted. So, I made the decision to go ahead and center the model on 0 degrees and work out the hovering from there. I quickly found that precision hovering over cones was extremely difficult for me. Even if I dramatically lowered the slope of the pitch curve, the model just didn't have a good "set" to it. I already knew that I surely did not want to center the model around hovering pitch and then just add in more negative for the aeros. Doing that makes it tough to precisely control the model while inverted, especially in critical maneuvers such as the inverted piros. The solution was to let the MZ do some work for me. The model is still mechanically centered around 0 degrees. I use the radio to raise the entire pitch curve up so the model hovers at half stick. The slope of the pitch curves line is then adjusted as needed for desired sensitivity. I'll also likely play with some expo around center with that curve to keep the model crisp enough with large pitch inputs but still precise enough for very small inputs. Gordie knows well about this trick. Upstairs the model uses a standard mirror curve with positive and negative pitch dialed as needed for the maneuver at hand. I use the MZ's condition delay to smooth the transition in and out of hovering at half stick to the mirror curve. The transition is seamless.

RE the mixes, almost every F3C model requires some degree of ail>ele mix to roll axially. For right rolls, the mix is typically R ail to UP ele and L ail to DOWN ele. I use a multipoint mix to "set" the model's nose at the start of the roll with a bit of up ele followed by the points needed to get the model to roll axially. Yes, that means the mix goes one way for a brief period of time and then the other for the reat of the mix. On the ail only, I also have the MZ set to slow the speed of the servo when roll command is INPUT to keep from entering the roll too aggressively and causing a corkscrew.

Ben Minor
05-15-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Heli88
Key Veteran
Location: Clarkston, MI

Doc...thanks for the info.
05-15-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

14MZ

We keep fiinding better ways to do things on the 14MZ. Did you ever wonder, how in the heck did the software engineer think up that stuff we need when we didn't know we needed it?
On rolling mixes, I have an ail/elev mix when I roll right but no mix at all when I roll left. Both of my contest Pro IIK-Ts are that way so I guess it must be some kind of an aerodynamic canopy thing but it works so I leave it that way. I also have small ail/rudder mix that sets the nose as I enter a right roll that I don't need for a left roll.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-16-2005 Over year old.
 
 
bald eagle
Veteran
Location: detroit michigan

i know it is a very long nd drawn out answer but lets start from the first step on how to set up and balance a fai heli


thanks jeff
05-16-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Chris.C
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

About the 2006 new schedule, could anybody advise whether the hovering manuvers still mark up by K factor 2?

Thanks,

Chris
05-17-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Wayne Mann
Senior Heliman
Location: United States of America

No Chris the "K" factors have been taken out.


Wayne Mann
05-17-2005 Over year old.
 
 
DIM
Heliman
Location: Athens Greece

Hi Wayne
I recently purchased an exelent condition caliber 60 for F3C use only.
Is it safe to upgrade it in 90 (YS 91) without upgrading the frame,cluch ,only the gearing?
05-17-2005 Over year old.
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

Do any of you F3C guy's use servo delay instead of expo, I'm not upto F3C standard but maybe sportsman standard, but I use servo delay on pitch, ail, ele & it seems to work ok for me for hovering manoeuvre's, in idle up 2 I take the delay's out.



Tony
05-17-2005 Over year old.
 
 
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
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