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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Saw something REALLY UGLY at the flying field today
 
 
Raymond
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Ireland

Janek is right....

Less argueing = more practice= less crashes = problem solved
08-08-2002 08:28 PM
 
 
JJsaratogaNY
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, Virginia

guys...

at our field, when I first joined, they made me prove that I could fly by completeing a bunch of flying tasks. At first I was downright angry about it, but now I am greatful. it keeps the idiots frlom getting into to the air with their deadly toys. Now that I am a heli guy, they still let me fly there, but we don't fly at the same times. It sort of become and unwritten rule of respect. We wait for the planks to land/refuel, and then we go up, and they wait for us to land, then they all go up. No fighting, no pissing matches. The only time I ever brought my boys to the field, a new pilot almost killed my son with his 60 sized sport plane. he was doing touch and goes, when he dumb thumbed it, and instead of throttling back during his emergency, he hits full throttle and stalls and it snaps inverted and comes screaming into the pits. the wing brushed the top of my sons head as he duxked to avoid it. it passed over his head at full RPM's, and slammed into the back of a parked honda CRV. left a nasty scratched mess on the back of that CRV. It had a really hard time keeping my mouth closed after thta incident. I wanted the guy kicked out. but, since then we have talked about it, and we have made up so to speak. I guess it all comes down to [B]COMMON SENSE If we don't all use common sense, it will wreck this wonderful hobby for us all.
08-08-2002 09:16 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Mopzilla
Veteran
Location: Cupertino, CA USA

Hey, what happened to AMA insurance? Or do they seldom pay the insurance money?

-----------------
Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?
08-08-2002 09:40 PM
 
 
wiljam
Senior Heliman
Location: Santa Paula, California

I have said this before (I think) but accidents happen. Models crash and when they crash they are never to picky about where they do it.

I have seen the most experanced pilots have things go wrong or loose it in the sun or just plane foul up, my self included. Every one of us have to know by now that if we go to the model field we may have to dodge an arant model, just like going to the golf course or any number of things.

There was a time when we all were new or had a 30 handycap. Un safe flying is sometimes a factor but this stuff happens.

Will
08-09-2002 02:58 AM
 
 
driftrider
Veteran
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

Assumed risk?!...

just another excuse that people use to pass the buck! If lawyers were anchors the world would be a better place. So then, if I understand this concept correctly, if I take my heli out the the field and set it in the pits then it's MY fault when someone crashes into it?! This is one of the main reasons our society is going right down the crapper. Nobody takes responsibility for their actions anymore. I understand that mishaps happen, but by taking off the pilot assumed at least some responsibility for the accident because parked aircraft are supposed belong in the pits, flying aircraft do not. By this same logic one could argue that by building a house it is the home owners fault when the neighbor's brat hits a home run through his picture window. Or, having parked ones vehicle on their driveway which is private property just like most fields, and it gets hit by a careless/reckless/drunk driver then it's the owners fault since he should have known the risks of parking there. Assumed risk can be used to justify ANYTHING! Gee, it's not MY fault that I rear-ended him, he shouldn't have stopped there! I guess this is the way it's done in Kalifornia, and this type cancerous philosophy seems to be spreading at a phenominal pace across this country. God help us all...

blazen,
You come down awfully hard on beginners for trying new things. Weren't you a beginner once too, back in the day? You make it sound like you were born the perfect pilot, but I'd bet you've made a mistake or two during your time as a pilot. I hear people say that one shouldn't be doing forward flight until they can auto, but how can they practice auto's without going into forward flight? I'm pretty new to this, but I understand that straight down auto's, while possible, are far more difficult than autos with forward airspeed, surely you must too? I think that pushing ones limits is the real buzz of this hobby, provided that one excercises due caution, otherwise we'd all be content just hovering around. There is a certain order to learn things in, but to expect people to master one thing perfectly before moving on is unreasonable. And if one screws up as damages someone elses stuff who had no part in causing the accident, then they should compensate them for their loss. Everybody tries everything for the first time once, and everybody crashes trying new things, so lighten up. It also seems to me that you get down on less experienced pilots sharing their knowledge and insight with others. I don't think that one needs to have 20+ years of experience to know a little something about building and flying helis. And, conversely, I don't think that all of the people who have been flying for 20+ years have all the answers, either. Just because someone asks a question about building or flying a heli doesn't mean that they are incompetent and cannot respond to other peoples questions on other subjects that they might know more about. There are many different ways to approach this hobby, none of which are completely right or completly wrong.

Mike

What do you call one million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A damn good start!
08-09-2002 04:02 AM
 
 
MobileRaptor
Veteran
Location: Orange, Texas

Don't even get started on lawyers, this thread will never end.

Have you ever seen a lawyer sued for malpractice? nooooo
08-09-2002 05:28 AM
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

I have to agree with Blazen for the most part, there is some assumed risk when you bring your model out to the field. Deciding which side of the line the incident falls on is the tough part. If you've got a pilot that is over flying the pits repeatedly and on one of the passes he looses it and plows into something he pays. He was acting in a deliberately reckless manner. On the other hand if he were flying and following all the rules and a servo goes south on him then he's not really at fault.

Here's something to think about, if two aircraft have a midair, who's at fault? In most clubs neither, there is an assumed risk when you fly with other aircraft in the air.

Personally that is why I keep my stuff toward the back of the pits and I don't usually fly with others in the air without there being predefined flight zones. Other than that I have a spotter with me to warn of any impending midair situations.

As far as there being dangerous people in our hobby, without doubt. I've seen one newbie not put the retaining nuts on his tail blade grips. He had used CA and it held until he was almost at full flight rpm. The blade and grip took off to almost 50 feet up when it finally seperated. I have also seen one particular planker that practically buys ARF's in 6 packs. I don't think I've seen this guy get more than 1 or 2 flights out of any model before he totals it. I have also seen him with one of those Hanger 9, Cap 232's with a big Saito 4 stroker. Talk about dangerous. Luckily, like all the others, it didn't last long.

One thing I have seen that really bothers me is plankers that don't like helis that will actually try to midair the heli that's flying. I've over heard them saying things like, "Hey, my ARF was only $100. I'll gladly pay that to take that @#$%ing heli down." Of course this guy will find out the hard way that if he pulls that with my X-Cell SE he's in for a mouth full of fist. So to avoid having to beat this guy senseless I stay down when he flies. Unfortunately I have found this to be an all too common thing at various different clubs lately.
08-09-2002 01:19 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Quote
>>>One thing I have seen that really bothers me is plankers that don't like helis that will actually try to midair the heli that's flying. I've over heard them saying things like, "Hey, my ARF was only $100. I'll gladly pay that to take that @#$%ing heli down."<<<

Holly Crap

That’s just insane, this guy should be listed in Webster’s dictionary as the true definition of a moron.

I think if I was in this same situation I would note that dates and times that he made these threats. If this guy Ever does manage to take out a helicopter. The retribution should be harsh and immediate. He should be forced to pay all costs involved in restoring helicopter then be expelled from the club. I would further go as far as to notify the AMA and all local clubs as to his malicious intent and dangerous behaviors. Basically I would do my best to see that AMA canceled his membership and that no local club would allow him to join as a member. I believe at one time they referred to this as blackballing. All this assuming that there is enough of him left over to blackball
08-09-2002 01:40 PM
 
 
3DManA1
Senior Heliman
Location: Kansas City, Mo

Well said Blazen
08-09-2002 02:44 PM
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

It's already happened. One of the heli guys heard a planker yell "Taking off" so he took up a hover on the far side of the runway over the flying area waiting for the guy to get airborn and settled before he resumed his flight. The plank took off alright, and then made a hard right turn and flew straight into the heli. The main blades caught the landing gear and the heli crashed. The guy with the plane wouldn't even land when asked to, which is club rules btw. End result, the heli guy got nothing. He was told it's part of the risk of flying with other people. That may be so but this was intentional.

At the same club I have also seen plankers deliberately disregard a safety line and then botch the takeoff and end up doing a mad recovery through the hover area. Their answer was, "oops, sorry" and then go back out and do the same thing again. The officers don't seem to give a **** because they're all plankers too. They try to say, "well, things happen sometimes". My answer is you suck as pilots and should still be on the buddy box if you can't make a simple take off given the length of the runway and the openness of the field. I've flown planks in the past and have only on very rare occassions run into a situation that required a mad recovery on take off. And that was when we were flying off a 3 foot wide abandoned running track and got blasted with a cross wind. Needless to say I'm not looked upon favorably.

Want to see more of what I'm talking about? Check out my web page about the 495th RC Squadron in Tewksbury, MA. This is not the same club as mentioned above. These guys are far worse. We moved over to another field in the area and the guard that patrols both fields said he likes to go watch them on his lunch break. He said he usually sees several crashes every day he goes there. And these were the guys that said helis were too unsafe to fly at the field.

Http://dragon2115.tripod.com/495th.htm

[edited] Btw, Don Kraft, the AMA District 1 VP, was contacted about this and he was as useless as **** on a bull. All he did was listen to the plankers and come back and say, "Well, helicopters fly differently than airplanes." Got an idea where this bone head is coming from? As far as I'm concerned the AMA is useless for anything regarding helis with the exception of their insurance. If it weren't required by the clubs I'd take out my own liability policy and tell the AMA to go screw itself.
08-09-2002 03:07 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlyingFreak
Senior Heliman
Location: Succasunna, New Jersey

Thats why Heli pilots need to get involved in the local clubs and become an officer. Then we can start having a voice and making changes to current policies. Also what about starting just a heli club with no Planks allowed. Don't think they would like to be treated the way they treat us. Maybe they are all just jealous that they can't fly our heli's but I bet any descent Heli Pilot could fly their planes.

PS. If someone intentionally tried to down my heli you could bet that their would be either some blood shed or civil case against them. (How about reckless endagerment for starters)
08-09-2002 04:47 PM
 
 
blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Quote
>>Also what about starting just a heli club with no Planks allowed.<<

I agree That a helicopter club for helicopter Pilots Only is a good idea. But in reality a lot of us helicopter pilots also like to fly fixed wing. I think a good compromise would be to allow airplanes, as long as the individual also owned and flew helicopters on a regular basis at the site. In other words helicopter pilots would be allowed to bring their plane and fly If they wanted to.The requirement to become a member would be owning and flying Helicopter’s airplanes would be secondary and of course helicopters would take priority and have right away
08-09-2002 05:05 PM
 
 
FlyingFreak
Senior Heliman
Location: Succasunna, New Jersey

Blazen,

That is a good idea.

But I bet if there was a club and as long the heli pilots are a majority they could let any plankers fly without issues. Because the heli pilots would be in control. If the plankers didn't like it then they would have to leave.

I guess it really comes down to who is in control of the club. If the president of the club was a heli flyer then I bet most of this would be a non issue.
08-09-2002 07:15 PM
 
 
Raymond
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Ireland

Quote 
At the same club I have also seen plankers deliberately disregard a safety line and then botch the takeoff and end up doing a mad recovery through the hover area. Their answer was, "oops, sorry" and then go back out and do the same thing again.


Dragon2115

It would appear from your statement that your hover area is UPWIND of the runway for aircraft.....

As an experienced, or should I say EXPERT fixed wing flyer such as yourself, it seems a really stupid place to put a hover area.
You will of course agree with me when I say that fixed wing flyers rarely go too far downwind ?

After all, they dont put playparks at the end of full size airport runways ? Or maybe somebody knows different ???
08-09-2002 10:49 PM
 
 
driftrider
Veteran
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

Private club=selective membership.

If I were to start an R/C club I wouldn't necessarily make it heli-only, but I would make sure that there was some screening of an applicant to make sure that they weren't the types to cause trouble. The problem in many clubs seems to me to be not from the younger pilots, but more the oldtimers who have been flying R/C before proportional TX's were invented. Many seem to have the attitude that they have some sort of seniority and can run the show, and many are just grumpy old men who think that their way (planes) it the ONLY way. The safety argument is just the false pretense that they use to justify their ignorance and inflexibility (I hear this same "my way is the only way 'cause I've been doing this for 20+ years," crap that I see from a few pilots here from time to time as well). This is not to say that there aren't some old timers that like helis, even if they don't fly them, so I don't want to overgeneralize.

My opinion on flying with plankers is that I don't care to until I've met the guy and got an idea about his attitude, and seen him fly. Watching airplane pilots they seem to be really polarized in terms of flying skills, either they are really good or they really suck. There are some in between, usually the newer ones on their way to being really good. What it surprizing is the number of "veteran" pilots who fit squarely into the really suck category. That's why I like to fly on windy (5-10+ mph crosswind) days; most plank pilots can't do crosswind takeoffs and landings to save their souls. I've seen plankers pack up on days that I wouldn't consider windy enough to practice autos.

More room for me to fly, I quess!

Mike
08-09-2002 11:02 PM
 
 
Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

I have been reading Dragon2115's post then followed the link to the website about 495th RC Squadron.

The situation is identical to the one at our club, even the field layout is the same. I mean it is as if Dragon2115 had taken the field layout picture from our club's website. One difference though... we can still fly helis and that is because the chairman clearly stated that the club is open to all types of flying since it was established and will remain like that no matter what the votes say. He flyies gliders at a different part of the field he isn't really bothered what is going on with power as long as people don't complain to him.
08-09-2002 11:21 PM
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

There's always got to be one wise ass in the bunch.

Raymond,

I guess since I know how to take off with an airplane that doesn't have enough power to pull unlimited vertical and NOT try to climb out at 60 degrees AoA causing a totally predictable tip stall, that must make me an expert plank pilot by planker standards. Geez, I didn't know the requirements were so low. Maybe that's why the knuckle draggers keep blowing their take off's even though they've got a 60x300 mowed grass runway. Maybe that's why they do it over, and over, and over again and again. I guess making a mistake and learning from it, even after you repeat it 50 freakin times, is asking too much.

Oh, and if you'd like to blame someone for the stupid location of the heli hover zone, blame the knuckle draggers, I mean plankers, that were on and in control of the BoD at the time. Btw, the hover zone is set off and back away from the runway. If it weren't the hover zone it would be extended pit area. So every time one of these people over flies the hover zone think of it as they just over flew the pits. Still think these guys know how to safely control a model aircraft? It actually is a pretty safe location provided you have people with even marginal skill flying from the active runway.

And Ray, if flying into the wind is such a big deal for these guys why do they both take off and land from the same end of the runway a good portion of the time? Gotta be doing something going with the wind when you do that. And if the wind is favorable for such action why can't they choose to do it from the other end of the runway?

Anything else you'd like to add even though you're a couple of thousand miles away and having never seen this field?
08-10-2002 04:36 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Driftrider,

I believe it's called "Old Guy's Social Club Syndrome" and you're exactly right. I also agree with you about the apparent polarization of plankers with regard to skill level.

Angelos,

Be careful, if your BoD ever changes and these people get on the board it's all over but the shouting. Good luck, I hope things work out for you.
08-10-2002 04:45 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

Quote 
Be careful, if your BoD ever changes and these people get on the board it's all over but the shouting. Good luck, I hope things work out for you.

I don’t know how it will eventually work out for the rest of them, but I am moving away from this place bofore the next AGM
08-10-2002 06:01 PM
 
 
Raymond
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Ireland

DRAGON2115

It doesnt take a genius to say that if people fly through your hover zone, no matter where it is, then its time to move it !!

It also makes no difference who put it there or whether I am 10 feet or 10000 miles away, its still obviously in the WRONG place....

" Obstinance has been the downfall of many a genius and even more fools "
08-10-2002 07:07 PM
 
 
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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Saw something REALLY UGLY at the flying field today
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