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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Saw something REALLY UGLY at the flying field today

FlyBar_007
Heliman
Location: Baltimore, MD, Chase Area

One lawyer in town will go broke. But two will live like kings!

08-07-2002 02:35 AM

Mopzilla
Veteran
Location: Cupertino, CA USA

Quote

It sounds fair that you pay for any damage you cause if you crash into someones plane. But, what about the guy that brings a turbine heli, or a $10,000.00 F-18. That person may be willing to risk that kind of money, but then should everyone at the field now be put in the position to pay for that heli/ plane should they accidentaly midair with it. Why should eveyone be forced to take that risk just because some wealthy man feels that money is no object?

Hold on, that's two different things. First, if I was in the shoes of the guy who owns the super expensive machine, I'd insure it, just in case something does go wrong. If you have 10,000 to dump on an r/c aircraft, you better have money to dump on the insurance for it. If there is a midair, then they should figure it out. But if something happens, like a fool is flying over the pits inverted and accidentally give up elevator and destroys the turbine jet/heli, then they should pay, at least some money. On the other hand, the guy with the expensive toy should have kept it in a protective frame or in a car. Who knows.

Accidents happen. And here is another standpoint: A guy with a super expensive model has it out where it can be hit. It is HIS responsibility to keep it safe - so don't show off and keep it in the car. It is HIS responsibility to insure it. HIS responsibility to go and clear the frequency so he doesn't get shot down. If he did everything right, with max caution and safety, and somebody else flew their plane into the pits or into somebody's trunk, then they should pay at least a large amount, even thought the persons model is insured. Insurance goes up when something happens... no?

-----------------
Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?

08-07-2002 02:40 AM

mudbogger2
Key Veteran
Location: Hoschton,Ga.

Saftey

Most problems are caused by not following rules. In our club we have a flier who crashes his planes on a regular basis. Almost always caused by piliot error. But he always follows the rules of the field and his crashes usually end up far away from anyone or anything. Does he know how to fly? not really. But he follows the rules and I still feel safe around him. Even idiots can be safe If they follow some common sense rules.

08-07-2002 03:09 AM

TeleHeli
Heliman
Location: Jacksonville Fl

"somebody else flew their plane into the pits or into somebody's trunk, then they should pay at least a large amount, "

WOW!!!!! so you would be willing to cough up say $5000.00 if you hit that jet? Thats just crazy I say once your model dramatically exceeds the cost of the average model at the field. You then take on full financial responsibility as soon as you remove it from your home!

08-07-2002 03:20 AM

rcpylon
Senior Heliman
Location: Saltillo, MS

TeleHeli,

this discussion has been discussing ground collisions/accidents. You may have misinterpreted this to mean mid-airs also. Mid-airs are an unfortunate fact of flying. The only exception to this may be if another pilot is trying to intentionally crash/hit your aircraft, mutually agreed combat excluded. With this case, I believe the person should be held accountable.

I also follow a standard ruel of thumb that if I crash someone elses aircraft while I'm flying it and it gets damaged due to my neglience somehow, I'm responsable for getting it back to the condition it was before the incident. This goes with the saying, "if you can't afford it, don't ask to fly it."

My two cents,

-------------------------
Alan Warfield
-------------------------

08-07-2002 02:13 PM

Davidk
Heliman
Location: Pinnacle NC

THINK

we wonder why AMA insurance rates are going up and up. it dont take much to check our aircraft before its flown and after its flown.
we are all responsable for what we cause.. saftey is cheap.. accidents cost way to much..

08-07-2002 03:17 PM

Malorie
Elite Veteran
Location: Paw squared, MI

I do not believe the AMA gives anything for any model for any reason.

Like Mudbogger said, if the rules are being followed and reasonable saftey precautions are taken, then it's "stuff happens". If the goofball is a piss poor flyer and can't control his aircraft enough to stay out of the pit area then they should be on a trainer cord.

I'm curious, if this guy was such a saftey hazard, where was the field marshall and why was he flying off a cord?

It sounds like something was wrong with the plane. Why on earth was he revving it up to full throttle on the runway like that?

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

08-07-2002 04:40 PM

Malorie
Elite Veteran
Location: Paw squared, MI

If someone asks me to fly their aircraft, I tell them right out, I always try my best to keep it out of the dirt but I won't promise anything. If they still want me to fly it, then it's on their head. I always treat others aircraft as though it was theirs and fly VERY conservatively and do my absolute best to not endanger their bird.

I would expect them to do the same for mine.

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

08-07-2002 04:44 PM

alvinrc
Veteran
Location: Mobile, AL, USA

It All Boils Down To

Common sense and courtesy.

That can cover most situations not addressed by specific flying site rules.

Sometimes though, there is a lack of the above and some clubs try to address every possible situation with a rule and this not possible.

08-07-2002 05:12 PM

HOMEPAGE

blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Assumed Risk !!!!!!

WRONG WRONG WRONG

It’s called Assumed Risk. You know what risks are present at the flying sites. You and only you made the choice to expose your expensive toy to that risk !!!!! So you and only you will be liable for any subsequent accidental damage.

Now if someone’s unsupervised child trips on your beloved toy while playing in the pits . Or someone turns there Transmitter on/ Shoots you down then that’s a different story

But I refuse to pay for someone else’s model if a wayward plane hits it !!! BOTTOM LINE again its called ASSUMED RISK ask yourself why you cant get insurance coverage on you beloved aircraft.

This is exactly the crap that is destroying clubs. People are leaving club flying sites in huge numbers to fly outlaw elsewhere And I don’t blame them.

All I say is So sue me !!!!
I have seen this in small claims court quite often and have never seen a plaintiff win their case yet >>>>>>> again its called Assumed Risk <<<
In order to win this type of case you would have to prove that the Defendant / owner of the plane that damaged yours did not take reasonable precautions to prevent the Mishap. As long as the Defendant claims that he took reasonable precautions to insure the safety of all bystanders / property. The Burdon of proof is yours GOOD LUCK>>>> Did he range check his radio ???

73's
Blazen

08-07-2002 06:07 PM

blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

GROW UP

This Question on who is safer Heli pilot or Fixed wing is just going to far

I have been in this hobby for over 25 years I have been flying model Helis just as long. from what I have seen latly Model Helicopter Pilots are far more dangerous then anyone else at he flying site. It never fails to amaze me at how little they actually know about what they are flying !!!

Over and Over I have seen Heli pilot’s that have just barely started to learn to fly. These guys can barely hover yet they feel safe enough to try to do loops and rolls even before they learn nose in or autos.

At least most fixed wing pilots have good building skills. And try to learn as much as they can before they try something new. I see fixed wing pilots use a buddy box before trying a new maneuver. I have never seen a Heli pilot try it. And don’t give me the crap that a trainer box wont work with helicopters because I use one all the time to train Heli pilots !!!

Don’t get me wrong I love Model Helicopters but this self-righteous crap this new crop of Heli Pilots is slinging is just to much >> GROW UP<<

Blazen

08-07-2002 06:24 PM

Harbinger
Veteran
Location: alberta

Blazen what are you talking about

"I have been in this hobby for over 25 years I have been flying model Helis just as long. from what I have seen lately Model Helicopter Pilots are far more dangerous then anyone else at he flying site. It never fails to amaze me at how little they actually know about what they are flying !!!"

You need to be more mechanic then pilot to fly a helicopter. Most of the plane guys will throw a piece of tape or gum on their plank and up it goes. A little ca will hold kind of attitude. Most helicopter guys will not fly if there is even the smallest problem. Your engine needs to be setup bang on to be able to throw your helo around. Most plank guys give you a dumb look when you started adjusting their low speed needle to get it to run right "..I never knew that was there". Now i know im making a few general statements about all plankers just like you are about heli pilots but ill take my chances with a heli pilot anyday.

08-07-2002 06:43 PM

HOMEPAGE

slant911
Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV. Hirobo, Magnum Fuels, MAH

Yeah. Hey. Slow down there Blazen.

As stated before generalizations about people/things really suck.

In my experience (not everyone's) helis pilots are more meticulous about maintenance and safety. However, we do have at least one heli pilot that I call "Mr. duct tape and bailing wire". Now when he flies everyone takes cover. However, he is the exception at my field. We try to get him to loosen up his wallet once in a while to actually buy new things and not put everything together with CA.

On the other side there are plankers that fly very well and are safety conscious, but, there are plenty more in terms of percentage that don't have the skill to be doing what they do. They are so out of touch that they don't know that they don't know. And none of their "buddies" help them to learn. They just go on their merry way. It especially makes me mad that the plankers that are good pilots and are safe don't say a damn thing to the offenders.

THis is my personal experience and may not be like this everywhere. I've been on both sides. I was a planker. I know for a fact that my personal views about safety and what is O.K. to fly and not O.K. have dramatically changed since flying helis. The overall feeling of the plankers is that if anything happens I can glide it in. Not the case if an elevator control surface falls off. They do NOT think in those terms though because the overall aircraft is static. On a heli everything is spinning and moving in some fashion or another so it makes you think that ANYTHING can and will happen.

I'm done. It's probably not worth talking about anymore. It's purely attitude on everyone's part.

John B. McNamara

08-07-2002 06:58 PM

HOMEPAGE

Malorie
Elite Veteran
Location: Paw squared, MI

blazen is not far off base. The percentages are about the same from what I've seen. I have seen plenty heli pilots fly their machine even though I can hear and see things wrong with it from the pits. I have also seen plenty plank pilots that can't get their engine to run right and just keep the throttle up some so they can make it to the air.

I think it is all a matter of percentages, and they are the same for helis and planks (there's one in every croud). Just because you personally take the time to go over your heli to make certain things are right, doesn't mean that everyone does. The percentage may be a bit smaller with heli pilots mainly due to the $$$ envolved. Heli pilots risk more so are more concious about the risks. But if you think that the percentage is hugely different between the number of unsafe heli pilots and unsafe plank pilots, you are sadly mistaken.

The upper end plank pilots are VERY skilled at troubleshooting problems and won't risk their models either.

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

08-07-2002 06:59 PM

fritzthecat
Key Veteran
Location: New Orleans

Blazen;
ASSumed Risk works both ways. If I bring my U$2k heli to the field I take the risk that some bozo crashes into it. On the same level, the Bozo ASSumes the risk of crashing into my heli when he starts flying. He choose to take a risk as much as me. If he can't control the plane and damages mine he pays. What you are saying is that because I parked my car on the street the guy that hits it should not have to pay damages because if my car wasn't parked there and / or had a concrete wall around it he wouldn't have hit it.
People like YOU are the reason I don't go to clubs not pilots with expensive planes.

Fritz

http://www.fritzthecat.info
'Send Money, Women and Guns!'

08-07-2002 07:00 PM

HOMEPAGE

blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Fritz
You missed the point completely!!!

A Model flying site is an area set aside for a specific activity!! Utilized by paid members and guests. In other words private property
A street is public domain if you crash your model into a car parked on the street you will have to pay for any damages. Unless of course the car is parked illegally (Facing the wrong way ??) !!

don’t try and argue a case with a weak analogy

I wonder if a Pro Baseball player can sue another player and make him pay medical bills because his ball struck and injured him on the field ?? its called assumed risk

Personally I feel that the streets, drivers and courts would fair much better if driving a car was considered assumed risk. Gone would be the days of ambulance chasing Scuzbag lawyers and multimillion dollar settlements !!

73's
Blazen

08-07-2002 08:13 PM

blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

It really looks like no one got it.

In the case of the pilot who flew his plane into the pits. He would most likely lose his case and should probably reimburse the owner of the plane he damaged before being sued. My point being that test flying a model on a bright Sunday morning when the site is packed is not taking reasonable precautions. In fact I believe the AMA has a clause or two on that same issue.

Personally reasonable precaution would be illustrated such as

“you should test fly/make a madden flight when it is safe to do so and the likely hood of damage to people and property is minimal in case of a Mishap or loss of control”

Now be honest how many Helicopter pilots have fired up a brand new heli at a crowded flying site ?? Personally I fire all my helis up on a run-up stand first. I wont fly a new heli in front of spectators or other people period until I have at least a Gallon of fuel through it

73's
Blazen

08-07-2002 08:39 PM

NitroSpazzz
Veteran
Location: Wisconsin and/or Minnesota

I agree

I am very new to the hobby and have crashed my poor Rappy 2 times. Once on purpose and once on accident. I have also seen many dangerous things happen at the field.

First I wil tell you about my crashes. The one I crashed on purpose is a long story so I will make it short. It was my fourth night at the field with my heli, it was also the fourth of july. So everyone brought family, friends ya know great time, fireworks when dark, etc... But I was working on hovering aobut 3-5 feet off the ground when this little girl sees the Heli. She runs towards it (I was doing tail in and saw her running for the front of it.). I didn't want her to get hurt so I slammed the heli into the ground sideways and killed it good. SHe was fine but the Raptor was not

The mom thanked me and gave me enough money to fix it about 3 times. But I am just glad no one got hurt. The second time I was out there on a nice night. Well I was hovering and I had my tag on so no one would turn on their radio on my channel. Well other than me 1 person is on my channel. I did not know he was there otherwise this pry wouldn't have happened. But I was hovering kinda once again and I guess he turned on his plane and his radio. Well he is playing with the sticks checking stuff and the whole time the Rappy is going all over. I yelled and he aknowledged it and shut down. I hit the ground and did about 75 worth of damage, he paid for most of it. So now when we see eachother out there we take the crystal out so it does not happen.

But I have also seen some dumb stuff. One guy has a 1/3 scale bomber. Well he dropped golf balls on our cars one night and almost hit some kids on the 4th. I also saw a jet go into a truck, bad sight. What a mess. I just think that people should be a little more cautius when they are in control of these things.

Blake Tennessen
507.279.3930

08-07-2002 08:49 PM

HOMEPAGE

Malorie
Elite Veteran
Location: Paw squared, MI

Classic,
I wonder if the shoe were on the other foot if you would say the same thing. Say you were flying your well preflighted, well maintained heli and god forbid something happens, say you sling a tail blade, and your helli goes piro'ing into the pits and distroys that $12,000 (inflation as we speak) jet. Your saying that you'll pay for that, and expect to have to?

I cetainly agree that if it is out of sheer stupidity that you run into it, you pay. But a pure accident is what that 'assumed risk' is about.

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

08-07-2002 09:45 PM

blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Quote
>>Nobody likes a looser who trashes someones stuff and than refuses to pay for it.<<<

Well that is just what I expected. Just because you don’t like someone’s plane or heli then he is a loser.

The real loser is the person with this attitude

This self-righteous better then thow attitude really makes me mad !!!

Its that exact attitude that gets us Heli pilots and our birds kicked out of and banned from flying sites !!! I have seen it happen all to often. Unfortunately its Idiots like me that have to smooth things over at the next club meeting.

People with this attitude have no respect for what it took us >>>People like me and my friends to Get Helicopters allowed at local flying sites to begin with !!! My friends and I worked very hard to get Fixed wing Flyers to finally accept us at flying sites. And keep in mind that most sites can still ban helicopters at a whim. All you have to do is piss-off a life member and that’s it.
I personally am tired of having to intervene every time one of our juvenile acting heli pilots gets mouthy or starts flying crazy or disagrees with the club safety officer. I’m about ready to wash my hands of the whole mess. Like I said before GROW UP and learn how to play nice with your toys or else go home and don’t come back.

I’m at the point that I don’t even fly at the site I helped Build. 15 years ago.. People forget this is a hobby it is something that most people do to relax after a hard week. We deal with this juvenile behavior all week from our employees or coworkers we sure the heck don’t need it at the flying site.

I own over 550 acres of prime Calif. Property I can afford to pay for any plane I might destroy heck I paid for most of the site to begin with. I have no need for a flying site. I helped fund and build many local sites just because I love the hobby. I am a Life member of more then one club. But lately the Kraziness and absurdity have driven myself and a close group of friends to abandon our traditional flying site and built a private small Flying site just for us on MY property we fly Mostly Helicopters But planes are just as welcome “As long as you own a heli”

Since its my site its open by invitation only !! Guess who makes the rules there (ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK !) The first person that opens there mouth and threatens to sue someone over a Mishap is not welcome Back the Rules are simple.
1 No Beer or alcohol till your done flying for the day!!
2 Help if you can
3 Do your best to insure everyone’s safety
3 have fun. .

08-07-2002 09:51 PM

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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Saw something REALLY UGLY at the flying field today

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