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Autogyros - Gyrocopters > Why aren't their more successful stories about autogyros?

jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

I'm building the Cierva C.4 Autogyro from Arizona Co. and every person I talk to around here just smiles and says good luck!

I'm taking my time, trying to make sure my blades balance out right, going to bench test my engine....is their any other precautions I should take? I would like this to be a success story....no one around here has one yet with an autogyro!

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

jodini

01-11-2005 Over year old.

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Ted Toth
Elite Veteran
Location: Myrtle Beach S.C.

Quote
Why aren't their more successful stories about autogyros?

most I have witnessed flying were difficult to see
and very easy to lose orientation

.

You don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stopped laughing.

01-11-2005 Over year old.

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Al Magaloff
rrMaster
Location: 12,199 Posts- Enough Time Wasted. See Ya!

Maybe for some of the same reasons the full scale did not become mainstream? The Cierva is a beautiful model though!

01-11-2005 Over year old.

jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

You guys are killing my confidence here! Did I buy the wrong model? That ARF from Japan looks killer but don't have $350.00 to blow!

Any more input?

01-13-2005 Over year old.

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nmosson
Heliman
Location: Le Havre, France

Hi Jodini.

Don't be afraid with autogiro, most of people does not know what it is. Remember that an autogiro is not an airplane, neither an helicopter. The original idea of Cierva was to find a plane that is not subject to stall, which was one of the most critical problem at the early period of aviation, and the result of Cierva's experiment is the autogiro (other ways to solve the same problems were explored by othe rengineers like Henri Mignet with the flying flea).

The idea is to avoid stall by having a rotating wing. While the wing rotates, the stall will not occur. The principle of the autogiro is to have this rotating wing (later called rotor) freely rotated, with no power input. This phenomenom today is known as autorotation. Keep in mind that while the rotor rotates, the autogiro can fly. To control it in flight is an other subject.

If you want to success, take a tractor configuration (propeller at front), like your CIERVA C4. Always use more than two blade rotor (better performances and better possibility of balancing), and it is OK with your 4 bladed rotor.

The main parameter to check before flying is position of center of gravity (ideally intersection of rotor axis and propeller axis). On your C4, the correct balancing is acheived when fuse is hanging like on the drawing when supported at the rotor axis position.

If you read carrefully and follow A. co. of Az manual of your C4, you may success easily.

While you are close to your first fly, you can drop me a mail and I will give you guide lines to success this first flight.

Again, don't be afraid, autogiros are flying very well. I never tryed the C4 you are building, but I play with the Pitcairn PA22 and it fly very well. Note I am trying to convert the japanese KIRARA, but I can tell you that it is not a very well flyer for a standard pilot skill like mine (stability problem and vibrations). I am going to modify it to have it safely flyable.

I put on my gallery some photos and one small video for your info.

Have a nice day.

01-17-2005 Over year old.

Fullagas
Key Veteran
Location: Michigan

.
Jodini, don't be discouraged. I'm planning on the Gyro-Bee conversion for my Lazy Bee, and the Arizona guys have a lot of knowledge and many successful kits out flying. RCM has had a few autogyro's in their mag over the years, and all offer the same cautions.

I'm planning on using a spinner and pre-rotating with a cordless drill or starter motor, whichever is more stable. Low rotor rpm is one no-no that brings many to grief, so watch out for that. I think if you're flying helis, you've got the orientation worked out.

Keep us posted, I'm going to order my kit next month.

.

I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch.

01-18-2005 Over year old.

gyronuts
Heliman
Location: North Yorkshire England

Hi,
I live in england and over 20 odd years have been dabbling in gyros.
Jim baxters "Suitcase minnie" (plan) flies great on a10 to 15 size motor.
Latest kit about is the PT gyro (www.flyingbalsa.com) for a small motor. I intend to try to electrify it for a Typhoon 15 and 3S1500 lipoly pack.
This power setup flies my other gyro but I keep crashing to due to pilot error and orientation problems.
Interestingly hitting the ground at full power when the blades are covered in "zagi" tape resulted in breaking the rotor pylon not the blades! Bill

01-18-2005 Over year old.

jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

Thanks guys!

With the problem with low RPMs I decided to attach a tail wheel and not do the hand launch. I will still make sure it auto's up in my hand, but watching a video of a guy taking his autogyro in the air from pavement looked alot more appealing than chunking it to it's death.

If anyone has built this model and has any tips, I'm up for suggestions.

I did find a guy here locally in Omaha that flew a RCM plan called the whistler...neat little autogyro, but I think the little wing makes it look like your cheating.

Thanks for your respondses. I was wondering if anyone out here actually did autogyros!!!

01-18-2005 Over year old.

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gyronuts
Heliman
Location: North Yorkshire England

Hi again,
I have a variety of "gyronuts" fly in videos from the USA fly ins which show the C4 fly from the ground and hand launched . The model seems to fly well. I think there is also a downloadable video at www.autogyro-rc.com.
Bill

01-18-2005 Over year old.

T_J
Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

Actually Joe, I have flown one semi-successfully and built/crashed another a few years back. The first one was a 2-blader that I bought at auction... .25 size motor. It flew once successfully, but was a handful. The second flight one of the rotors broke in mid-air and it went in like a yard dart.

The second was a arizona lazy bee. It seemed really fragile. Nosed over on take off and the fuse busted into a gajillion pieces. I think I still have the plans and the rotor head parts somewhere.

Looking forward to seeing your go!

Tim

01-19-2005 Over year old.

Fullagas
Key Veteran
Location: Michigan

.
TJ,

PM'ed you. Is there enough left for a Lazy-Bee already Built?

.

I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch.

01-20-2005 Over year old.

iconnary
Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

I've designed and built several successful gyros over the past few years. I've also built many more unsuccessful gyros in the same time period. Its been a bit of a challenge. I fly fixed wing and helis, and I can tell you that getting a good gyro flying is a very unique, rewarding and fun experience.

Here are some random thoughts and ideas that I have found very useful from my own experiences.

- www.autogyro.com - read this site inside and out, there is more useful info here than anywhere else I've found. Pay special attention to this page : http://www.autogyro.com/technic/specs.htm.

- The most involved part of gyro construction is the rotor system. The blades have to have the right (SG6042 ideally) and have to be balanced within 1-2% of each others' weight. The blades really need to have flapping hinges, as well as lead lag hinges (these are easily done via a single blade mounting bolt).

- You can try making your own rotor blades, but this is a lot of work and difficult to do well. I buy mine from www.aerobalsa.com. Not the cheapest, but the workmanship is incredible.

- 2-bladed rotor systems work, but 3 bladed ones work much better than 2, and 4 blades slightly better than 3.

- There is really no need for a special pre-rotator setup using a hand drill or starter motor. I've played with these ideas with limited success. If your rotor system is built correctly the blades will spin up in the slightest breeze (or at a slow taxi).

- I've built gyros with conventional control surface elevator control (just like on a fixed wing), as well as fore-aft rotor shaft tilting elevator control (also known as DC control - Direct Control). They handle roughly the same, until you get into lower airspeed regions. As you can guess, the conventional elevator control surface becomes very ineffective at slow speeds, and for this reason the DC gyros are much better.

- Some people argue that you don't need a horizontal stabilizer at all. Many gyros have flown without an HS, but they can be very quirky and prone to violent pitch excursions (bunt-overs). Use a horizontal stab.

- Maintaining orientation on the flying model is very difficult at first. I lost a few of my early gyros to this problem. I ended up covering the horizontal and vertical stabs in sharply contrasting colors (black/yellow), and use these to maintain orientation.

- The golden rule of flying gyros - never unload the rotor system. This means no negative-G maneuvers. You can't fly a gyro inverted for any length of time. You can do loops (tight loops), and I've heard of some doing rolls, but thats about it for a gyro's aerobatic repertoire.

- Tractor gyros are much simpler to build and fly than pusher gyros. I wouldn't recommend a pusher gyro for someone's first gyro.

My current gyro has an extremely low disc loading of ~1.2 oz/ sq. ft and is an absolute joy to fly. It will float along and hover in a very slight breeze. What a blast.

Hope someone finds all this useful.

01-20-2005 Over year old.

jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

WOW iconnary!!!!!!

Thanks for all the helpful info. Right now I have two sets off blades. The one that come with the kit, which have a long piece of music wire on the leading edge. The other blades I have are the aerobalsa blades. I just have to cut them to size. Should I add tip weights to these? Also how do you guys figure out disk loading? What's the formula?

Thanks for putting up with my stupidity! After I build, fly and crash this autogyro, I was thinking about buying one of those PT gyros from www.flyingbalsa.com.....are they any good? It has the tilting head like you talked about iconnary....right?

Thanks again!

01-21-2005 Over year old.

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Hercdriver7777
Senior Heliman
Location: South Carolina

What you really need is one of these!

It flys really well!
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...irara_Day_3.zip

We've talked about this before but the key with these things is the takeoff. I find the best way is to set your power at a high idle speed maybe 15%. Then let is roll slowly accelerating and don't touch the power. Be very careful with the rudder to keep it going in a straight line directly into the wind and use your aileron control to fight the rolling tendency of the retreating blade. At some point you will see the blades really spin up and the gyro will lift off the ground. At this point follow through with a little more power as required.

Once in the air It flys pretty much like a plane but I find that you have to lead with the rudder instead of aileron. Changing speeds will induce roll. It will be most stable if flown at a constant speed.

Landings are easy just make sure to add a little power in the flare.

Continued good luck to you Jodini...

Good Flying!!

01-21-2005 Over year old.

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iconnary
Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

jodini, the Aerobalsa blades are the best I have ever seen. Use the other blades first until you figure out what you're doing. Then switch to the aerobalsa blades and notice the enormous difference.

No need for tip weights in these blades. They need to be as light as possible. You many end up needing some weights in the tips for balancing though.

To calculate disc loading, divide the weight of the model (in ounces) by the surface area of the rotor disc in square feet. To calculate surface area of a disk, use 3.14 x radius x radius (pi*r^2). The best flying models generally have a loading under 2 oz/sq ft. All this is on the site www.autogyro.com.

The flyingbalsa.com kit (PTGyro) does appear to be a DC gyro. I have no experience with this kit, but it seems like it'd be a great first gyro.

Regarding the gyro rolling with application of power or speed, this is caused in part by engine torque, but more so because of the disymmetry of lift problem. If your radio will do it, mix in a bit of opposing aileron with the higher throttle regions. I've done this and it works very well.

01-21-2005 Over year old.

jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

Here's a pic of the autogyro I've been working on. What do you guys suggest....should I put something on the side for orientation and what? I have yet to put the cowl on....it's a pain in the butt...miracle whip container and a lot of cutting. I'm going to use those blades from aerobalsa first. The ones you see on there are the ones that come with the kit...heavy and not much to them. Haven't done the hold it in the wind test....should be interesting. Going to test it out tomorrow...weather permitting.

02-02-2005 Over year old.

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iconnary
Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

You'll definitely want some visual cue on one side, especially if you're still new to gyros.

The best solution I've found so far is to make the vertical stab and rudder a different color from the horizontal stab and fuse. This gives you a prominent reference to keep your orientation.

02-02-2005 Over year old.

jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

Well I decided to put the cowl on there for orientation. Everything is balanced out almost perfect, 4degrees downthrust on engine, 8 degrees back on blades, 12 degrees hang angle.......blades all track and spool up in breeze....or atleast the aerobalsa ones do. The ones that came with the kit didn't do so hot....need some negative pitch. But the aerobalsa ones work great, so those will be the ones I will use.

Now wait for a nice day!

02-08-2005 Over year old.

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jodini
Senior Heliman
Location: Omaha, NE

Got my nice day and CRASHED! Too much lift, too much back angle, and too much wind........not a good combo! That sucker did a loop so fast I didn't even get a chance to fly it! Rebuilding again.