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Main Discussion > Why cant full scale helis 3D?
 
 
spyderman19s
Heliman
Location: ENTERPRISE, ALABAMA

full scale 3d ha ha

i am 100% sure that full scale can NOT do 3d, how ever there are SOME helicopters are able to preform SOME aerobatic manovers.
Top reasons full scale can't 3d
1. the main rotor system only produces postive lift..at min full down collective you have +4 to +6 degrees of pitch. no negitive pitch at all.
2. the transmission systems are not able to be unloaded..if torque is removed from the drive train while inverted, planitary gear WILL come apart transmission has a sudden stoppage rotorhead comes apart ...fall like rock...die.
3.the oil system are scavenge system oil stays at the bottom of the sump. it is picked-up through a pick-up tube ...similar to your car sitting in the drive way. if turned invert for a prolonged period of time with out any force applied....about 5-10 seconds oil is no longer picked-up lack of lubercation, build heat,gears lock up repeat #2.
4. some fully articulated heads can loop, roll, split-s , or even do pedal turns to a max of about 12-15 degree per second turn or will lose tailrotor affectiveness.
i hope i have been helpful to everyone on this topic, i can provide more info on full scale helis if someone is intrested.im a ch-47 and uh-60 flight engineer, flight mechanic, and a aircraft mechanic at the
United States Army Avaition Techical Test Center at Ft.Rucker Al
thanks Scott
01-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
willie evans
Veteran
Location: Alberta, Canada

Found the post of Full scale 3-D flying well as close as you should get to 3-D
http://runryder.com/helicopter/p547252/#p547252

and this is the link to the clip I was talking about before
http://libra.technology.users.btope...om/DRKJ2002.WMV
01-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
mrhelichopper
Heliman
Location: The Netherlands

Sorry but I have to object to point 1 spiderman19s.

Not all full size helicopters have only positive pitch and it certainly is not minimum of +4 or +6 degrees at the bottom setting on all types. On the Robinson R22 it is an average (average as it varies along the span of the blade due to washout on full size blades) of +2 degrees.


Examples I know of are the RN Lynx and the Wasp which both have negative pitch to hold them on the rolling deck of a ship and the Skycrane that required it for autorotation at light weights.
01-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
John Benario
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta

Every Sikorsky helicopter has been looped and rolled. Whether that statement includes the original R4 I do not know. It may be production models only. The Bell 680 rotor can do aerobatics. The Hughes 500 can do loops and rolls. As the video shows the Lynx can as well, as can the Gazelle and Dauphin, and of course the Boelkow. Of these the the Boelkow head is the most suited as it is solid titanium.

The key is that all the aerobatic maneuvers are done with positive Gs. As mentioned in the post above there are issues with negative Gs, not the least of which is tail boom clearance.

John Benario
01-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
spyderman19s
Heliman
Location: ENTERPRISE, ALABAMA

mr helichopper

thats true. im not current on all makes and modles of helis. i would like to retract my statement for the last post that i did......and restate
1. Most helicopters do not have ENOUGHT negitive pitch in the main rotor system to hold the aircraft inverted.
01-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Dyehard
Veteran
Location: Cedar Bluff, Va.

Not to mention that their main shafts are very small relative to our models, being designed to work only in tension. If you were to scale most full sizes helis main shafts down to model size, we would be using using 1/8 music wire for main shafts. I'm sure that a dedicated full size 3D heli could be built, given enough R&D and money, but it would probably take a goverment to fund it, and for what purpose? It would end up with no payload carrying ability, and helicopters, being as expensive as they are simply won't exist if they can't pay their own way.
01-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
warrior29
Senior Heliman
Location: FL

Dyehard and spiderman your on time and on target! What purpose would it serve other for our entertainment?

First when you say 3D you must define the term because basic aerobatics does not mean 3D. I would define it as manuevers requiring continous application of negative lift to sustain flight. Yes some helo's have negative pitch capablility but not for flight just for shipboard ops as stated before.

Now with 3D defined, the AH-64 along with other semi or fully articulated rotor systemed aircraft are capable of negative G's but not negative lift or less than 0 degree pitch. Full size aircraft have mechanical and structural limitations, such as load, torque, weight and rotor rpm. To build a helo capable of sustain inverted flight would be cost prohibative and would serve no pratical military or civilian purpose. So then why would a company spend millions of dollars developing something that is not needed?

So your next intelligent question should be, then why do we do it with fix-wing aircraft. Good question, because there was a military need to have an aircraft with agility and inverted flight characteristics to bear weapons on a target quickly. This technology spun off into the civilian market it is also a natural characteristic of an airplane do to wing design. Airplanes do not have the "same" design limitations that helicopters have.

I have been completely inverted in a helo and it is not comfortable at all. I teach 60 degree diving fire techniques, that make most of my students scream like little girls. The envelope for helo's will expand with carbon fiber technology, and as more powerful engines and drive-trains are developed, but I wouldn't hold my breath to see a full size helo do a tic-toc manuever any time soon.
01-06-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FBaity
Senior Heliman
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL

Every Sikorsky helicopter has been looped and rolled. Whether that statement includes the original R4 I do not know. It may be production models only. The Bell 680 rotor can do aerobatics. The Hughes 500 can do loops and rolls. As the video shows the Lynx can as well, as can the Gazelle and Dauphin, and of course the Boelkow. Of these the the Boelkow head is the most suited as it is solid titanium.

The key is that all the aerobatic maneuvers are done with positive Gs. As mentioned in the post above there are issues with negative Gs, not the least of which is tail boom clearance.

John Benario
No way has every Sikorsky helicopter looped and rolled. I flew H-34s, S-58Ts and long ago H-19s and S-55s. believe me these machines would not loop and roll.
01-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
sincity
Veteran
Location: Pasco, WA

Quote 
I teach 60 degree diving fire techniques, that make most of my students scream like little girls.


That has to be a helluva ride!

Shawn
01-07-2005 Over year old.
 
 
warrior29
Senior Heliman
Location: FL

Yes looping and rolling can be performed while maintaining postive G's throughout the manuever, which means it could be be performed by most helicopters, if performed correctly.

With an underslug rotor system such, as the Huey and Cobra unloading the rotor system during low G manuevers can cause a condition known as mast bump. This is when the rotor head comes in contact with the mast. This usually leads to a catastrophic failure of the rotor system.

The aircraft that you mentioned, the 680, 500 and the daulphin have semi-articulated rotor systems. The gazelle, lynx and BK I believe all have fully articulated system. This is what gives it the manueverablity to actually pull limited negative G's. Notice I say negative G's, which constitutes higher degree of manueverablity.

A loop and roll have not all the aerobatic, a 747 has been rolled and a CH-53 has been looped and rolled. Getting back to how this discussion started about 3D you must look at the pitch and roll rates of the aircraft. I could not quote you roll rates of other helicopters but I speak specifically about the AH64 which has a roll rate of 60degrees/sec. This is about the same as the roll rate of a F-16. Yaw rates are limited to 60 degrees/sec due to structural limitations. This means when I roll an Apache it will roll out with no significant loss of altitude (this was flight tested and proven by McDonald Douglas, now Boeing in 1988). Roll a CH-53 you better have several hundred feet below you because it will take all day be for the dirty side points down again.

I demonstrate high low G manuevers in the Apache almost on a daily basis. It is capable of up to of +3.5 G's to -.5 G's. Test where performed by MD Test Pilots years ago to test these manuevers prior to the 88 Farnbourgh Air Show. The rotor blades did come within 6 inches of the tail boom during the manuever but never made contact.

I seriously doubt that the H-19, H-34 or any of the older birds ever went completely inverted because of mast bump, but those old guys were kind of crazy and sure as I say it didn't happen someone will prove me wrong. But I have flown everything from TH-55, Jet Rangers, MD 500, Daulphins and Apaches, and I you wouldn't catch me trying it in anything that was designed to do it.

60 degrees nose down makes stuff float in the cockpit. Looking nearly straight down at the ground rushing up to you is always a blast.
01-07-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
swingwing
Heliman
Location: SoCal

Actually Warrior, the BK and I believe the Lynx too, along with the BO-105 have rigid rotor systems, not fully articulated. These systems do not have lead/lag hinges nor do they flap, only feather. These are all done through blade flex. These are very manueverable, but at the cost of a rough ride, especially when transitioning through ETL.
01-07-2005 Over year old.
 
 
warrior29
Senior Heliman
Location: FL

You are correct sir, I stand corrected
01-07-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
swingwing
Heliman
Location: SoCal

Not trying to ruffle feathers, especially those of a fellow full scale avaitor.
01-07-2005 Over year old.
 
 
warrior29
Senior Heliman
Location: FL

This is a good link for more info.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cg...lQ&modele=jdc_1

Credit card can't be max'ed I have more up grades to buy!
01-07-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_guy37
Senior Heliman
Location: Central, Ohio

Actually you would be amazed at some things that full scale aircraft can do. I have a friend and he was telling me about a story of a 757 jumbo jett when it was still in the testing stage one pilot actually did a roll. No joke when he landed the plane they asked him why his aieloron (sp) was held over for 13 seconds (they thought there was a malfunction in the monitering systems) he simply said I did a roll. Now in todays world he would be locked up and thrown in jail never to see daylight again but they actually used it as a marketing campaign to proove how safe and nimble it was.

NOTE: not sure if this is entirely true but he seems to think soo.
01-07-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Fullagas
Key Veteran
Location: Michigan

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Hi kids!

Quote 
Full size aircraft have mechanical and structural limitations, such as load, torque, weight and rotor rpm.


Can we all say "Boom Strike"?



The 707 was rolled on its first public demo flight, over Lake Washington, I believe near Bellingham, WA.

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I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch.
01-07-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Gidday Warrior29, in that video that was going round of the CH-53 looping and rolling, I was really surprised at just how quick the thing did roll. Was amazing that's for sure.

You'd need a good set of brass balls to be doing that kinda thing in such a huge heli!

Si

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Simon Lockington
01-07-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
warrior29Senior Heliman - Location: FL -
Not to kick a dead horse but I found some pictures today. More are posted in my gallery. I have the video in my archive some where. If I can dig it up I will post it. These photo's have not been doctored in anyway.


wow that's big anybody know how to shrink em down?
01-11-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
swingwing
Heliman
Location: SoCal

Cool shots. Looks like fun.
01-11-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Alistair
Key Veteran
Location: no where land

Quote 
the oil system are scavenge system oil stays at the bottom of the sump. it is picked-up through a pick-up tube ...similar to your car sitting in the drive way.


actually my cars use -dry sump- systems.




squigle
01-15-2005 Over year old.
 
 
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