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Modefo's RC Helicopters . XHELI.COM . Autography FlightPower

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Main Discussion > Mixes and eCCPM
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

Your time would be better spent burning gas than worrying about interactions.

TM
08-09-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Tell me about it.

My helicopter is in a very different time zone than I am.

But hey at least I'm not crashing.

-Aaron
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

Quote 
Your tjme would be better spent burning gas than worrying about interactions.


Very true...

Interactions affect 3d moves and the pilot can usually fly around them...

ADT is advanced digital trim (as opposed to analogue trim) and the 8103 with digital trims is very good at eCCPM



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08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Guys if I could fly instead of sit in front of this keyboard I would.

Seems I have a lot of misunderstandings about interaction. I figured it would affect the very fine tuning type stuff like precision hovering.

But if this isn't the case then I've been barking up a wrong tree.

-Aaron
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

Aaron

it does not seem to affect precision hovering...

My rappy 50 eccpm conversion will hover inverted hands off for a substantial period of time...

its when the sticks move fast that the interaction comes in..

Not worth worryin about unless you are a geek like me



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08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

Galifrey, please explain how the moving flybar system of the tornado and 3dnt is a distinction of inline, electronic ccpm, or manual cyclic collective pitch mixing.

you also made mention that the physical interactions of eccpm can be mixed out electronically, please explain how the temporal differences of servo transit speed can be negated through standard radio corrections to geometry.
08-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Radio manufacturers...

Can't they make a transmitter input to output lag function that you can toggle on/off and set the lag amount?

For example - if your servos transit at .11 seconds you could set the delay to like .12. This means if the pilot moved the stick in .07 seconds, the transmitter would output the signal to the ship like it had been moved in .12 seconds. A lag if you will. Then even the slowest or worn out servo could keep up and the faster servos would be slowed down so they act in unison. Obviously you have made a small sacrifice in speed but the interaction would not exist. If this feature was something that the pilot could activate or deactivate then you could choose if you want it or not. If you have real slow servos you could set the lag to more.

The cheap alternative is never move the stick faster than your slowest servo can keep up.

Galifrey - So you're saying interaction is worse when read online than when you actually fly it.

Much ado about nothing?

-Aaron
08-10-2004 Over year old.
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

Aaron,

You are late to the game dude. ATX already has it.

Read my earlier post:

Quote 
As long as you are trying to turn rotary motion into linear motion and use bellcranks too, you won't ever be able to mix all the interaction out. You're doing this by eye, so how close can it be? Galifrey may use two mixes on his particular setup but on my Caliber with a Stylus, all I did was speed match the servos using "CPS Delay", then adusted the following:

CP3-Delay
CP-Linear
CP-EPA

These functions trim out the swashplate at various pitch points.

With the right radio, you need no free mixes.


BTW KC,

There is no such thing as mCCPM. Whether the swashplate moves up and down or you do it with a wire makes no difference. What matters IMHO, is whether or not it passes the 4 channel test. If you can fly it with a 4 channel radio it isn'ta form of CCPM whether it is "e" or "m". It's just mechanical collective. DD had way to much time on his hands when he postulated this carp.


TM
08-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

heh heh Tmoore, ok we're getting into semantic differences , IF the same thing that affects cyclic also affects collective pitch it is clumped into the term "ccpm", that's a sliding swashplate mixed electronically or mechanically. whatever lies above the swash IS going to be affected by what happens at the swash, ccpm or not..... so I would not really clump any of the mixing above the plate as unique or influential to the tendencies of ccpm as Galifrey had suggested with moving flybar design. I would agree with the statement that 'mccpm' doesnt exist per se, but as long as some manufacturers want to call a sliding swash mccpm and most everyone in this forum doesnt care the difference except the few dweebs like us, I can go along with it for the sake of clarity

Aaron, I like the idea of the delays but in practice all these things we are geeking out on are very small differences that will not kill a good flight (the time delay is in the magnitude of thousandths of a second) I never noticed the flying differences between machines with different mixing systems unless they were all my machines and I flew them back to back...its that small a difference!

bottom line, should you go with an eccpm machine, just make sure that the arms and p-rods are at right angles when the servos are centered, dont run cyclic or collectives past 66% or 2/3 max ATV....more thought work than that is waste of time like Tmoore said!
08-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

KC,

We can argue the CCPM issue to death but the bottom line is to get whatever you use to work the way you want it to. I find that a lot of the time that you can't mix out bad habits, like the failure to set up a maneuver correctly to start with. This is where fundamental flight practice comes in.

TM
08-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

KC

The 3dnt system only uses about 40% collective throw, even lower than your suggested 66%...

Thats because the moving flybar system has a lot of mechanical gain to increase the pitch and why it is less prone to interaction.. It also ensures the mixers are all at 90 degrees at level cyclic which also gives less interaction...

As for the tornado, last time I looked it does not have a moving flybar sustem, rather is is mCCPM through a very unique gimbal system that is why it has no interaction



Quote 
bottom line, should you go with an eccpm machine, just make sure that the arms and p-rods are at right angles when the servos are centered, dont run cyclic or collectives past 66% or 2/3 max ATV


Yup that makes a big difference giving you the speed and power you want with only a minor sacrifice in precision that we will never notice...

Should just point ot, that with the exception of my camera ship, most of my helis have been eccpm (fury, 3dnt, raptor eccpm conversion and cypher 50) and I havent found the interaction in them except on the bench



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08-10-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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