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HeliHobby . Ron’s HeliProz South . Century Helicopter

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Main Discussion > Mixes and eCCPM
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

I used 2 mixes...

Aileron to collective and elevator to collective this way as the cyclic pulls off some collective due to differential throws the mix compensates



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08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Anyone else have different experiences with the number of mixes for CCPM?

P.S. Galifrey - did you only mix it out at collective extremes or did you make a compromise somewhere?

-Aaron
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Sorry Glalderman thank you as well. Sounds like 2 is a good answer.

-Aaron
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
SteveH
rrProfessor
Location: Texas

Aaron,

Again, as I said earlier, I use no mixes, just end point adjustments, and I do the same thing as glalderman said sitting mine up. I adjust the end point as necessary to get a straight and true climb out both right side up and inverted. My point is, p-mixes are NOT mandatory.

SteveH
Magnum Fuel
AMA76186
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

OK,

Sounds good, but how does it do the fine stuff? Like how solid is it in a hover - I like the 3D stuff but also like slow down low stuff, it's challenging - not fun to watch but challenging.

I hear you aren't supposed to use ATV to fix interaction, but obviously it works at least to a functional level. Maybe not perfect. But if you were say an FAI nut you'd probably have mixing. Right?

-Aaron
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
SteveH
rrProfessor
Location: Texas

Personally, I fly both with the same helis. I find the eCCPM, when set up correctly, does both very well. It may be the helis that I fly, but all I do is use a comfortable amount of expo on the cyclic channels, and different pitch curves for the different flight modes, and I have the best of both worlds. IMHO too many pilots are setting their helis up for 3D only, with the pitch curves, and it makes them too hard to fly smoothly.

Most guys I talk with lately, use one pitch curve for all flight modes, i.e. -10 to +10 degrees for idle up, throttle hold, AND normal. If that's what they want, I say let them have at it, but my radio came with four distinct flight modes, software to make them different as desired, and that's what I do. I'll be the first to admit that I am by no means a great pilot, so why would I set up my heli to make it HARDER to fly?

SteveH
Magnum Fuel
AMA76186
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

If you have the right radio you don't need any mixes. With a Stylus I need none. There is enough adjustment in the program to do what I need to do. The rest is up to the pilot.

Don't put much stock in this "e" or "m" crap. Someone had way too much time on their hands and decided that anytime the swashplate moved up and down it was being mixed somehow. Utter BS. Whether you induce collective with a pitch wire or move the swashplate with mechanics doesn't make it any form or CCPM.

CCPM is software, plain and simple.

Quote 
Back to my original question how many mixes does it take to get an interaction free eCCPM setup?


As long as you are trying to turn rotary motion into linear motion and use bellcranks too, you won't ever be able to mix all the interaction out. You're doing this by eye, so how close can it be? Galifrey may use two mixes on his particular setup but on my Caliber with a Stylus, all I did was speed match the servos using "CPS Delay", then adusted the following:

CP3-Delay
CP-Linear
CP-EPA

These functions trim out the swashplate at various pitch points.

With the right radio, you need no free mixes.

TM
08-08-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

Mine is setup so no mixing at 0 pitch but 5% roughly at extremes of collective pitch...

I got a 9ZHP WC2 so it must be crap if I need mixes... although the 10x does include expo to negate the need for mixes... but it doesnt have the available mixes the 9Z has... so it needs summat extra...

Prefer to set my mixes manually and get them spot on than use a preset program with so many mechanical variables...





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08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

Aaron, a properly setup eccpm machine will not need any mixes for interaction and shouldnt be tried, there is no simple sane way to mix out the interactions of eccpm, what most people are accusing as interactions is the effect of spinning rotor with a helicopter underneath it.....all helicopters have a lot mass front to back, but very little from side to side.....when you go to feed it cyclics, most helis will move around because of this. the mixing for this is not for interaction.

Tmoore, fwiw, I have a background in the field of mathematics that governs how all this control system mumbo jumbo works, there is a valid point to the e and m stuff when you get into how it works beyond the software side (thats the easy part to figure) you are thinking of an inline system which differs from a sliding swashplate (ccpm, e or m whichever way you paint it)....I would say "good enough" for most pilots, they all work, but there are some large differences in the current e- and m- that a pilot who has played around with them both can prove without getting technical.

from what I know, I would choose mccpm before eccpm if that was a choice, the simple reason is that controls that move with mutual exclusivity are statistically provable as more precise (its all relative BS, but quantifiable). when you get three servos attempting to move a swashplate, you better know your math to make it a solid interaction free performer, so far most of the stuff on the market is a compromise because you cant design everything to be right all the time.

the reality between eccpm and mccpm is very slight in the stuff thats out there, usually shows as cyclic drifts at extreme collective ends.

not all the mccpm systems are so hot either, they can be improved, the best system (mathematically) is an inline sliding collective, where the swashplate never moves, these are rare because of parts count and costs.

most people are going to say good enough, eccpm hovers great, etc, etc, in most cases it is good enough, I wouldnt make the mixing system a big point in determining what to buy if you havent tried them all out, they will all fly!
08-08-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

Quote 
not all the mccpm systems are so hot either, they can be improved, the best system (mathematically) is an inline sliding collective, where the swashplate never moves, these are rare because of parts count and costs.


The best systems are moving flybar that keep the geometry square no matter where the pitch, unfortunately they are currently all eCCPM...

The Zoom 400 uses a static swash, thats very cheap




Quote 
Aaron, a properly setup eccpm machine will not need any mixes for interaction and shouldnt be tried


Sorry thats just wrong unless you are using a very good setup JR radio with expo where the mixes are built in to the expo to save you creating them...

It does not take much time to mix out the interaction at the extremes of collective on most good eccpm machines, but you will still find the limits of the system once you start moving the sticks quickly like some 3d manouvers now demand.. A lot of pilots can fly around it, but throw someone who has always flown a raptor 90 (say) and then give them an eCCPM version... listen to that person.. they will notice the difference...

Its why they sell the tornado as both eccpm and mccpm...

One has more collective authority one has more accuracy...



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08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Al Magaloff
rrMaster
Location: 12,199 Posts- Enough Time Wasted. See Ya!

Aaron, you need to buy a CCPM heli and play with it, and stop talking about "what ifs" .
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

I can't spend 700 bucks on a heli, 300 bucks on a engine/muffler, and another 400 bucks on high end servos. Not 'just to see!'

-Aaron
08-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

Al is right. All these hypotheticals aren't getting the job done. You're coming in late to the game anyway. A lot of us have been flying CCPM machines since they were introduced. If you want one great, if you don't, that's great too.

Just buy a Stylus or 9Z and mix the bejeezus out of it and go fly the damn thing.

TM
08-09-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Al Magaloff
rrMaster
Location: 12,199 Posts- Enough Time Wasted. See Ya!

As TM said, a lot of us have been flying these for a long time. Pretty tough to re-invent the wheel. You don't need high end servos, but they do center better, and are more closely matched for speed and travel. It just so happens that the CCPM machines are the top of the line. They fly like it too. If the buckeroos scare you, the Rap30 you are flying is a great machine. With 50 power, it will do anything. I have currently, seven flying helicopters. A 30/46/50/60and a 90 Raptor, a scale Robinson R22(ccpm) and a Bergen gasser. The Raptor 30 is what I fly most, when I have the time to fly.
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08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

On the 9Z you can link the mixes so it only mixes in at extremes of collective... ie the mix increases in intensity the further you get from center stick on collective...



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08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

OK maybe I should ask my question in a more direct fashion then,

Can an 8103 Heli do CCPM well, or would I have to get a new radioto get a nice true bird?

I already am using 2 of my 3 mixes just with a raptor.

P.S. Al now I get where you are coming from it's easy to say just run out and buy when when you own 7 helis.

-Aaron
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

8103 with ADT can activate expo in the Swash menu which does all the mixing in the program..

No need for mixes



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08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Wow whatever you said sounds interesting but just made more questions. What's ADT?

-Aaron
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Al Magaloff
rrMaster
Location: 12,199 Posts- Enough Time Wasted. See Ya!

Aaron, where I'm coming from is lots of experience. Just because I have a number of helicopters, doesn't really mean a thing. You are flying a Raptor 30 with wood blades. It will be a long time before you notice interaction while flying. That is true for 99% of us. Yes, your 8103 will do CCPM well enough.
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

OK then so what you are saying is that "interaction" as people call it is hardly noticeable? These are the sorts of questions I'm trying to gleam. I asked earlier if CCPM is tight enough for FAI type flying. Like I said I like to do loops, rolls, funnels (still working on piroflips on G2) but I also like to do the slow down low stuff - precision hovering. So interaction concerns me.

Al, I understand you are more experienced than I am. It's experienced advice that I'm looking for when I post here. Please bear with me. Consider where I'm coming from. You own multiple helis ... you must be comfortable buying new helis. I'm not. Had I not researched a lot my Raptor 30 with wood blades would have been a Nexus.

-Aaron
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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