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GrandRC . CanoMod . Futaba-RC

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Main Discussion > Is this mix possible?
 
 
runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

Is it possible to set up a mix where you would achieve a max pitch on your main blades regardles of stick position.

Fx if you commanded +9 on collective you would only be allowed +4 on cyclic, but if only demanding +6 on collective you would be allowed +7 on cyclic. (Just an example)

Probably not possible with my radio (9CHP), but maybe with higher end radios.

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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Jeff H
Key Veteran
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Sure but why?????

Just take one of your free mixes and mix cyclic to coll. i.e. 100% fore/aft cyclic would reduce the available collective by 20%. You just would have to be careful and use a multi point mix so that it only reduced the collective when the cyclics were near max.

Then do the same for left/right cyclic


Wouldn't it just be easier to mix throttle to cyclics


06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

To avoid stalling the blades

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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Blackrockminer
Heliman
Location: Somewhere else

Blade Stall

*Sigh* Alexander, must have been a long time since you flew a 30 size machine.
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
bellecrank
Veteran
Location: Canada

terms

Maybe the better term/description here would be "....to prevent the engine from ever being overloaded."
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Jeff H
Key Veteran
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Quote 
Maybe the better term/description here would be "....to prevent the engine from ever being overloaded."


Then the best answer would be "Collective management"


06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
flmgrip
Veteran
Location: Irvine, CA, United States

i don't think that mix would be a good idea.

let's say you are flying a roll and give full aileron, now because you are reducing your pitch (and therefore your mixed cyclic) you would need to back of on the aileron to keep a consistent speed for the roll... not really fun and easier i would think...

just reduce your cyclic overall to a point where you won't bog the engine very often... if the cyclic is to slow then change other things to speed it up, like paddles, servos etc...


what signature ?
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

*sigh*Alexander - Of course it can stall. All profiles will stall at a certain angle of attack. Speed (In our case RPM) doesn't really matter.
What you are describing as a stall during auto rotation is not really a stall. You are just running out of available lift really fast.
I don't know where you got the idea that rotor rpm had anything to do with the stall speed of the blades.


And like bellecrank mentioned it could also be used to prevent overloading the engine.(Which most likely will happen first, depending on setup)


flmgrip - The mix I am talking about wouldn't affect the roll like you are talking about. I want an absolute max pitch on my blades, but still be able to command full cyclic and full colllective, just not at the same time. So just because one of the two is at its max, no reduction will take place onless they are both getting near max

Jeff H - I am not sure the 9CHP does multipoint mixing, but I haven't looked into it in detail yet

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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ScareCrow_Delta
Veteran
Location: Sebastian, FL

I cannot grasp the concept of what you are trying to do. If you are, for example, trying to do a stationary roll. You reduce collective pitch, increase collective on one side inversely proportional to the collective pitch. Your roll will be kinda unpredictable, in a sort, and will behave differently. But of course you can get use to it. Or how about on a flip? Your heli will be detrimentally slow when you hit 0 deg collective. Is this what you are trying to do>??

~~~~ Defy the laws of gravity....gracefully ~~~~
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

ScareCrow_Delta - I can only say: you are misunderstanding what I am looking for. If the text I have written here doesn't explain it well enough, then I am sorry. I can't help you

Maybe if someone that understands what I am saying can explain it better for ScareCrow_Delta



[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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G.Man
rrProfessor
Location: Northants, but soon to be Nicosia, Cyprus

Stall = Drag>Lift

It is VERY speed dependant....

thats why planks stall at a lower speed...

Same principle applies to rotor blades



Don't Email me as I wont reply - PM Only (spam countermeasures)
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

Alexander and Galifrey

Stall is a function of (ie. it depends on) angle of attack and angle of attack only.

if a given wing or aerofoil exceeds a its stall angle (fixed for a given aerofoil), it will stall, regardless of speed.

If you look at it from an aircraft perspective:

Most basic aircraft do not have angle of attack instrument (airliners and military jets do exactly for this reason), so we rely on speed as an indication of angle of attack. You see, to support the weight, you need lift, and the combination of angle of attack and speed, for a given shape make up the lift, and so if your weight is fixed, you speed and angle of attact are the only variables, and your speed then indicates your angle of attack i.e. higher speed, lower angle of attack, lower speed higher AOA, and so the lowest sustainable speed for required lift occurs at maximum AOA i.e. stall speed. Of course some craft have a payload that is about 100% of the empty weight, so angle of speed for a give AOA changes......
Anyway, if you are flying fast, and suddenly increase your AOA or if you have an engine that is powerful enough to keep you from slowing down, you can keep on pulling on the stick, until the lift required for the "g-load" you are pulling is so large that your AOA is beyond stall angle.

Same concept of course also applies to our blades.

Have I stalled a blade? To be honest I don't know. My current setup doesn't command more than like 15 degrees when full collective and cyclic is combined, but maybe with fast forward flight and an aggressive pullup, giving the disc itself high AOA combined with follow on max pitch+collective, would give a highter actual AOA on the blades. Realize that a blade stall will just be occuring during during a small part of the rotation (If due to Cyclic/Collective combo) and the helicopter is not going to fall out of the sky. You are probably just going to experience a slower than expected rotation in the desired axis.

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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andyp
Senior Heliman
Location: New Zealand

Actually, strictly speaking, a stall is NOT directly tied to airspeed. I am surprised anyone with any knowledge would think it is.

This is so fundamental to any discussion I thought it worth reproducing this from http://www.aerialpursuits.com/misc/stalls.htm

It looks to me few have an understanding of this most basic idea:

Stall Myths
© 1996-2001 Raptor Designs Pty Ltd. (Last Update 10th August 2001)

In early flight training, it's justifiably hammered into new students to keep their airspeed up lest they stall. Despite lectures to the contrary, this sometimes leads to the student inextricably linking the onset of a stall with a particular airspeed, and to the belief that it is lack of airspeed that actually causes the stall.

Lack of airspeed does not cause a stall. Excessive angle of attack causes stalls.

A stall occurs when the airflow over the top of the wing separates into eddies rather than smooth flow. This occurs on most wing aerofoils at an angle of attack of about 16 degrees.(Angle of attack is defined as the angle that the chord of the wing makes to the direction the wing is travelling though the surrounding air mass). Some special aerofoils with high lift devices can exceed this figure, but for most aerofoils, it's 16 degrees give or take a degree or so.

The interesting thing is that this is pretty much independent of airspeed under most conditions. If you put an aerofoil in a wind tunnel and put wool tufts on it along the chord, it largely doesn't matter what speed you run the tunnel at, the wool tufts will start waving about or reversing direction at about the same angle as you increase the angle of attack.

The other thing you can measure in a wind tunnel is the amount of lift and drag generated by the aerofoil. One of the other fallacies that is often touted is that lift disappears at the stall. (The layman believes this because he sees that when an aircraft stalls, it usually drops the nose and loses some altitude, but he is attributing this effect to the wrong cause. The aircraft drops the nose because of it's stability. If it did not, there would be a real problem with the design.)

(Lift is of course, defined as the force generated by the wing perpendicular to the direction of travel of the wing through the air mass. Drag is the resisting force acting parallel to the direction of travel. For now, by the way, I will abbreviate angle of attack as "aoa".)

If you start testing your aerofoil with about 4 degrees of aoa (which, incidentally, corresponds to the value which yields the best ratio between lift and drag for most aerofoils) and increase the aoa slowly, you will find that the lift will increase, as will the drag, but the ratio of lift to drag will get steadily worse. At about 16 degrees, the flow over the top of the aerofoil will separate, and drag will increase sharply, and lift reduce a bit but not disappear. If you continue to increase the aoa, the drag will get huge and lift will reduce quickly, although some lift will still be present almost until the aerofoil is perpendicular to the airflow.

"Stall Speed" varies with wing loading!

If you're flying along, straight and level and slow the aircraft by gently raising the nose, eventually you'll exceed the critical 16 degrees and you will stall. If you do this several times, you'll notice that the stall always seems to happen at about the same speed, so you might mentally tag this as the "stall speed" of your machine, but you'd be wrong to do so. If you were to take along some ballast, or perhaps a passenger and conducted the same experiment, you would find that the aircraft stalled at a higher speed. Why is this?

In straight, unaccelerated flight (ie: constant airspeed), your wing is generating exactly as much lift as the weight it is supporting. The wing is a static device. For the same airspeed and same angle of attack, it always generates the same amount of lift. If you were flying along at a particular speed and suddenly doubled your weight (don't ask me how, this is a thought experiment!), the wing would suddenly have only half the lift necessary to support you. In order to support you, at the same angle of attack, it would have to fly faster, that being the only way of increasing the available lift. This principle applies at all angles of attack, including stall, so the upshot of this is that if you increase the wing loading, the airspeed at which the critical angle of attack is reached, is greater. That is: the heavier you are, the faster your stall speed.

The main reason instructors insist on students thinking of a "stall speed" is because it's the most practical way to avoid stalls. Most aircraft are placarded with a "stall speed" at "Maximum all-up weight" which is the heaviest the aircraft is likely, or allowed to be. The instructor can be reasonably happy that if the student stays over this speed in straight and level flight, and clam conditions, he's not likely to have an embarrassing accident.

However, there are some conditions where the aircraft's wing loading can effectively change in flight. The most obvious of these is steep turns. In a 45 degree turn, for example, the effective weight of the aircraft is increased by a factor of 1.414, and this is the reason extra airspeed is required in these turns. The stall speed is greater than in straight flight.

An aircraft can also enter an "accelerated stall" by doing a very fast pullup (ie: raising the nose very quickly after a dive) even at quite high airspeeds. In this case, even though the aircraft has lots of airspeed, the pilot has been able to rotate the wing very quickly beyond the critical angle of attack, and it will be stalled.



So in full size aviation, AOA instrumentation is gaining popularity:

Optimum approach to landing speeds vary with weight, bank angle, CG and even relative humidity. With the AOA instrument, we can now do precision approaches just like the military, Navy aircraft carrier, and airline pilots eliminating the requirement to compute performance speeds. AOA tells you where the airspeed is going to be unlike the airspeed indicator that tells you where it was. Your aircraft stalls at the same AOA regardless of weight, temperature, altitude or center of gravity and bank angle. Your stall indicated airspeed varies significantly with all the above. For any given airfoil, other performance parameters such as best lift to drag, best glide, maximum endurance and maximum maneuvering performance also occur at known AOAs.
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
BigChopper
Key Veteran
Location: Cambridge, UK

cant see it either..

.. if you do this funny mix, you'll end up with a really strange cyclic reponse I'm sure.. You can get used to it maybe...

If you are trying to stop the engine bogging in extreme cyclics then this is purely down to flying technique and succesfull pitch management.
If you put in full pitch and whack the cyclic to the max, you will bog the engine... even extreme 3D moves do not require this if you are managing your pitch inputs correctly and listening to the tone of your engine.

Stalls are not totally related to speed.. If you have an angle of attack of 70degrees, youll never be able to get lift.

Andy
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

flmgrip + ScareCrow_Delta

Now I see where you are coming from. You are looking at the mix Jeff H is describing.

That mix doesn't do what I am looking for in my original post and you are right that it wouldn't be a good idea.


The mix that I am looking for (If it is possible) will only take effect if both Cyclic and Collective are near their max. Realize that this will hardly ever happen and when it does it is most likely user error in the first place (Granted there are probably some 3D maneuvers where it does happen, but you wouldn't want to take it to a point where engine bugging or blade stall happens)

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

Quote 
Ok air speed has nothing to do with it That's why you can fly a plane at 5 kph if the wing has very little angle of attack. Not trying to be an @$$....just prove a point. If speed didn't matter the above would be possible. A stall happens when the AOA is too great for a given air speed.

The only reason the above is not possible is because you wouldn't create sufficient lift. If the plane had very little weight it would be possible. Haven't you seen little models do this?

Quote 
Quote
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The mix that I am looking for (If it is possible) will only take effect if both Cyclic and Collective are near their max. Realize that this will hardly ever happen
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I don't know about you but when I'm doing flipping loops I'm using full cyclic/collective at the same time going up, when doing tic tocs you get into this as well along with some other maneuvers. I guess if you're not into 3D it wouldn't be a problem...but it would mess everything up once you start stick banging.



If you have to quote me why don't you quote the entire part? I allready mentioned how 3D could cause this and also why the "mix" would still be a good idea:


Quote 
The mix that I am looking for (If it is possible) will only take effect if both Cyclic and Collective are near their max. Realize that this will hardly ever happen and when it does it is most likely user error in the first place (Granted there are probably some 3D maneuvers where it does happen, but you wouldn't want to take it to a point where engine bugging or blade stall happens)

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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andyp
Senior Heliman
Location: New Zealand

Actually Colin you could fly a plane a 5kph if you had enough lift at that non-stalled AOA.

I think you just have to accept AOA as being the important factor as it is aerodynamic theory and practice.

Andrew
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
runboy
Key Veteran
Location: Denmark

Read the link that andyp provided. It explains it in Layman's terms.

http://www.aerialpursuits.com/misc/stalls.htm

[url]http://www.avitop.com/[/url]
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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Helinutnz
Elite Veteran
Location: below 42 South

Lift=CL1/2 D V squaredS

CL = coefficient of lift
1/2 D is half air density
V= Velocity squared
S=Planform of the wing

Lift will increase until the rotor meets it's critical angle of attack. The critical angle of attack is set by the design of the blade and it's characteristics. The critical angle of attack is the point along the rotor at which the net airflow exceeds the ability to conform, breaking away from the rotor blade creating drag and a subsequent loss in lift hence the stall. You can stall a wing/blade at high speed! This will happen towards the tip but not at the end on most blades due to the shape causing a reduction in induced drag and a change in the net resultant airflow at the tip. This helps to avoid the tips from stalling first. (hmmmm. why check the blade pitch where you do on the blade....because it is the most critical point)
A blade can stall at any point in a flight if the critical angle is reached. most definately. Most likely under hard 3 d there is a lot of stalling as is in full size planks! It's just that due to collective management the stalls are very transient in nature and any reduction in collective will prevent the ongoing stall. There is no two ways about it....a goverened 1800 rpm blade WILL stall once the critical angle of attack is reached. Most low speed airfoils Critical AA is around 15 degrees. Most high speed aerofoils lower than that. That is why your collective sits not a lot above 11 degrees (add cyclic pitch rapidly and you could stall the blade) 9 degrees is chosen a lot with 11 for the bottom of the auto although it amy not help much given the rotor speed. It is not over the critical angle though so it will produce lift and help keep the blades flying on that hard touchdown! With high power more power absorbtion is required and pitch is one way, speed another although you may get out of the max power band of the engine, or change to a larger disc with possible tail rotor boom strike problems.
So what you are after is essentially an unstallable blade?? This may limit you to being able to operate the heli to it's full capabilities. someone said it before....better collective management is the best thing. Sorry about the length....obviously I am bored....let me know any of you guru's out there if I am wrong on anything....always happy to learn more
Cheers
Glenn
06-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

The simple way to do this is with a radio that has Stick Switches. The Infinty 1000 and Stylus have them. Regardless of why you want to do it, either of these radios can. I don't know about the 9CHP, maybe the 9Z has them but it has been a long time since I had one and can't say for certain.

If you program a stick switch to enable at say +9 degrees you can turn on a dual rate and limit your cyclic throws to whatever you want. You can revert back to your original settings below +9 degrees. You may also use the alternate model settings and use a stick switch to toggle back and forth from the main model to the alternate. You could also use a freely configurable point mixer to do this as well.

Terry
06-30-2004 Over year old.
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