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Aerial Photography and Video > FAA: we ALL fly UAVs - have your say now or else!
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Julian

I suspect you may be asking yourself to same question I asked myself some time ago.
Why is it that no-body seems to be bothered by these regulations.
Some even want them.

Figure that one out ?

My advice, dont waste too much effort in it and dont get to worked up about the issue.
If the folks in the USA want FAA regs, let em have them.
Let them worry about their worries and do as they see fit.

You have regs in the UK that work and allow you to oparate.
In the case of CASA here in Aus, well we just ignore anything they wont put in writing and they dont bother us.
They are never going to police it anyway.

A certain film studio that is know to anyone in Aus uses helicams, they dont use Aussie ones they use ones from the USA, they dont have any certification and CASA never bugs them about it.

As the regs are written I can operate without an OC commercially here and Ive not read an ammendments to the law that state otherwise.

Just a few spoutings from Mal Talker on an internet forum, or someone claiming to be him and a person whio called me but failed to put any of it in writing as requested, obviously becuase he doesnt have the power to under the statute and doesnt want to give me evidence in writing to take him to task on it in court, as I would.

All we can do is warn them of the impending regulatory drudge, if they dont heed the advice then whatever will be will be.
You know the old saying
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Persisting with it as I have done in the belief that it is a very important issue that should have everyone concerned Ive concluded simply isnt worth the effort..

It will just illicit foolish comment from people that you are angry or tense or some other silly crap from those who dont see the importance of the issue as you or I might.
They think its just a storm in a teacup from someone who likes the sound of their own voice, and you nor I deserve that for merely concerning ourseves with the wider implcations and how that effects others, we dont deserve that for voicing our views about equity and opposing hypocrisy.

Simplest way to avoid any such ingratuity from others is let them think whatever and let em get what they seem to want.

Look on the bright side, if the XXX studio here who uses USA Helicams they bring over here and the FAA puts the Kybosch on them, XXX studios might look to the UK and you might end up over here in Aus being paid fists of cash from XXX studios, Ill meet up and we can go out and paint the town red and have a laugh about the upside and downside of air safety regulation.

Cheers.
Dave
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Oh, I thought in the main that no-one gave a crap about CASA because it was down under and not in their face. I have got the impression that enough people have given a crap about this one that something good might come of it.

Bottom line, while views my vary wildly on every other subject, no one has a problem with downing cans, tinnies or tubes or whatever you put beer in where you live

Cue free-for-all.....

Julian
06-25-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Seaviper
Senior Heliman
Location: Ft Lauderdale

reference the above statement.....

The types of people who fly above 400ft (commercial floor in the USA?), which is definately into commercial airspace without coordination are simply the types who are pushing the envelope too far and causing the FAA to have to sit up and take notice.

made by ImRich....

First of all there is NO SUCH THING as commercial airspace..period.

Second, airspace is classified as A,B,C,D, E and G all with different operating requirements based on aircraft performance and operations.
Its not based on commercial or otherwise, its based on separation issues, performance, and weather minimums.

Third, class G airspace is what most of us fly in..unless you are really close to a tower controlled field. Class G is sfc to 1200ft AGL. Communication requirements...NONE. Transponder requirements...NONE. ATC separation requirements...NONE.
ITS UNCONTROLLED AIRSPACE. there are a few exceptions, but not many.

I am a pilot and a controller as a living. I separate planes from each other, weather, and obstacles every day. I do not understand why people who are not those things go and start "dealing with the FAA" on issues they don't even understand.

Who is this guy at the FAA? is he FSDO, Center, Approach, Region, Headquarters, what? What clout does he have?

Patrick
O|||||||O
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Seaviper
Senior Heliman
Location: Ft Lauderdale

here's a nice depiction of the airspace in the us



you can find operating requirements in the FARs and also in the 7110.65 (controller handbook).

also check your local pilot shop for a copy of the AIM/FAR 2004.

Patrick
O|||||||O
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
KE4UVQ
Heliman
Location: Gainesville, FL

AMA president speaks about this subject

Im not going to offer an opinion here but for those of you here that
are AMA members and receive the Model Aviation mag, I would suggest reading this month's (August 2004) President's Perspective on page 5.

Mike Robinett
W4UAV
Eyes Overhead LLC
Gainesville, FL
06-25-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
not in their face.


Yeah that may have been the case where it concerned CASA.

But the implications of what CASA was doing it and then raving to the FAA about their success with also it seemed as of little importance to anyone as did the fact we are regulated in Aus.

No-one much voiced any concern when I showed links to the earlier FAA mutterings on the matter that spelt out regulation was going to occur some time for them as it did with us
And UAV driven.
None of it meant much to anyone.
I dont see that is going to change even now.

Quote 
I have got the impression that enough people have given a crap about this one


You have more faith than I.
To me it looks like there is as was the case before, little interest other than ignoring it in some case and in other case they want it because it suits them commercially
Perhaps to have some badge for customers or to help get insurance, all the wrong reasons to have air safety regulations that are for the sole purpose of air safety not commercial outcomes.

Thats just my 2 cents
Its your time and energy, and good on your for going at it..

Cheers
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

seaviper,

I'm sorry if I posted the wrong name of the airspace!

I chose my words poorly, thats all. Perhaps I should have said into 'controlled' airspace. Perhaps the word 'controlled' is even a bit too strong?

Like it or not, even a folded piece of paper can be called an airplane, and by definition it could be considered a UAV. No one is interested in regulating paper airplanes, so don't take this the wrong way.

The point is that more and more RC aircraft are pushing the envelope and crossing the boundaries into areas where they can be dangerous to the unsuspecting public (both on the ground and in the air), other aircraft, etc.

The FAA says they will be addressing comercial use of RC aircraft(which can be loosely defined as an act which creates income) . They have not stated where the line will be drawn yet.

We're all simply trying to work together here. IMHO, if you are not trying to make any income from your helicam operations, then you probably have nothing to worry about. However, if you are trying to make a significant income from your helicam operations, then this could affect you. Of course, if you never have an 'incident', then no one is going to seek you out and cause you any problems. But if you do have an incident there may be a bigger book to throw at you.

I am not a full scale pilot, nor am I an air traffic controller of any type. I'm just someone who's trying to help out fellow helicam operators.

note: Most updates will be via the helicam group.

---
Rich
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Seaviper
Senior Heliman
Location: Ft Lauderdale

I was just trying to clear up some misconceptions alot of people have on airspace. Seems like people think that the FAA controls all airspace. They do not.

There is simply not just one FAA. If you say you talk to someone, you must say who he is and what his position is and where. There are alot of paper shufflers in the FAA that speak alot of meaningless babble to make it look like they are important (usually washed out controllers or decertified ones..they've been weeding out real pilots for years).

Get a name and an address and make them put it in writing. Phone calls are useless. They are scared to put things in writing and sign it. Makes them accountable when the time comes. And don't talk to a local "official". You need to get it in writing from a Region or from HQ.
Whatever HQ and the Region say gets done.

Bottom line, if it's not in writing, don't believe a word they say. Period.
This is from 15 years experience with the agency. They'll flat out lie to cover their butt if their back is against the wall. And don't talk to them unless you have a copy of the regs in front of you. That AIM/FAR is a great book. Also pick up a 7110.65. Good stuff in there.

Someone earlier posted the FAA requirements for UAV flight. That's already in force.

Now how the hell did I get work mixed up with my hobby? lol
Anyone seen my new Logo that seems to be lost in the mail?

Patrick
O|||||||O
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Patrick,

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

As to who and what group we're talking with, it was spelled out in the begining of this thread, I guess I assumed you knew that but here's a link to show you:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/notices/8700/N 8700-25.htm

Just dial the phone number listed and you will talk to the same person I spoke with.


By the way, for those of you not in the USA (or not an AMA member), I posted more information on helicam.org about this and a link where you can read the AMA president's notes on this. Which reminds me, I have another phone call to make!

---
Rich
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
fitenfyr
rrProfessor
Location: Port Orchard, Washington

ASO-820

Patrick,
He works for the ASO-820 (Aviation Standards Office branch 820).
You are right a cubile in a LARGE division I am sure, but he is the point of contact for this issue/notice.

I guess I have 2 points of view here.

1. From a pilots perspective in that I would like to see more information put out about ALL UAV/RPV operations so that I can fly my little 172 at 0-8000' safely with less concern that some wealthy person has a RPV/UAV capable of climbing into that airspace without any regard or knowledge of such activity. In this day and age of military contracts looking for just such aircraft any computer wiz could take it upon himself to cash in on that deal and build these aircraft. They may or may not find a knowledgeable or responsible person to handle the aircraft side of the house. Worse yet they could take the lack of regulation to their advantage and put the thing up into a dangerous situation.

2. From a future helicam operator. I want that ticket that says I am competent to fly in your back yard. Yes I see that as a business advantage and a piece of mind for my customers to hire me. Unless you have ever been through the certification process for a pilots certificate you will not completely understand why that is a good thing for COMMERCIAL operations.
With that said I don't want the FAA to treat my 20lb helicam operation the same as a 20,000lb UAV flying in the flight levels on a programmed course.
I also feel we could write our own certification requirements for the most part. The FAA probably has quite a few personnel flying model aircraft (see the AMA presidents article) that would be in a position to help us put those regs into effect the way WE want them to happen.
This is why in my opinion, being involved with the FAA NOW is important.
I wonder if the AOPA would have any contacts for this. I know for a fact they would be interested in it as it involves GA as much as any other group of aviation.

Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Seaviper
Senior Heliman
Location: Ft Lauderdale

no Seneca...the Post Office is privatized....just like they want to do with the FAA... lol

Patrick
O|||||||O
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
fitenfyr
rrProfessor
Location: Port Orchard, Washington

Scarey huh?

Quote 
no Seneca...the Post Office is privatized....just like they want to do with the FAA... lol

We will all be a world of hurt if that happens.
Pay more...get less will be the new moto there.

Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
Phone calls are useless. They are scared to put things in writing and sign it. Makes them accountable when the time comes. And don't talk to a local "official".


Same for CASA he in Australia.
Say plenty but refuse to put any of it in writing.
Worth ignoring until they do
06-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

MPA,

If you don't mind, review the CASA rules/regs and let us know via helicam org what is too restrictive, etc. The FAA asked for my comments on the CASA stuff, and I need to get some time to review it.

thanks!

---
Rich
06-29-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Rich

The CASA issue is not straightforward

The "regulations" in their written form seem to me to be well thought out.

They have consideration for operations by RPV, in that they separate RPV (flown in the line of sight of the operator on the ground, as we do) from a UAV (flown out of sight of the operater, thus requiring navigation systems etc..)

See regulations 101.235, being the definition of what UAV is.

But after reading the regulations, when you speak to individuals in CASA, some tell you to ignore certain regulations and do as they tell you, which they tell you that the regs apply equally to UAV and RPV which in both cases requires an OC (operaters certification)

But they wont put that in writing.

The justification given is that they decided becuase the description of "Aerial Work" applies to full size aircraft requiring on AOC or OC, so it should apply to UAV and Model Aircraft.

But this isnt law, its is just their opinion.
Well it was some time ago.

At the time they pointed to the regulations covering the types of operations described as "Aerial Work" for full size aircraft.

It does state that Aerial photography is "Aerial Work" which requires an AOC, so they interpret that (as an interperative dancer would) this applies to UAV also.

Now if you think that is a bit confusing, more recently those regulations that determine what is "Aerial Work" have changed and at the top of the new regulations it is clearly written,
Aerial Work definition applies to all listed activities (like Aerial photography), "except in the case of UAV".

In short CASAs reasons for stating we need an OC for line of sight operations, has now been contradicted in their own newer regulations covering Aerial work for full size aircraft that state UAV are excluded from that..

So now we are at the point that everyone is at a complete loss to why we are to ignore the regulation that states we do not need an OC for line of sight operations.
That is reg 101.235 part 2, a and b

And the months pass by and no changes and no other advice from them.

Specifically:
The regulations are within the CASR 101 regs covering everything from balloons, rockets, model aircraft and UAV.

101 contains Subparts

Subpart G is for Model aircraft

Subpart F is for UAV

At the begining of 101 it explains what Subpart applies to what

Go to Subpart F for UAV.

Within Subpart F there are a host of regulations covering UAV.

At the begining of Subpart F it states specifically who and what Subpart F applies_to.

It is called "Applicability of this Subpart"

It first states what Subpart F applies to.

(1) This Subpart applies to:

(a) the operation of a large UAV; and
(b) the operation of a small UAV for purposes other than sport or
recreation.

Then below that, it states specifically what Subpart F DOES NOT apply to

(2) Nothing in this Subpart applies to the operation of a UAV if:

(a) while it is being operated, the person operating it keeps it in
sight; and
(b) it is operated in a way that complies with Subpart G.

(3) This Subpart does not apply to the operation of a micro UAV.
Note 1 See subregulation 101.005 (3).
Note 2 For micro UAV, see regulation 101.240.

As you can see it clearly states that NO part of Subpart F applies to line of sight operations.
It states clealry that those operations must abide by the normall regulations for Model Aircraft found in Subpart G.

That is us, Helicams.
1 regulation only covers us, if that was not in the regs we would be stuffed

But CASA says no ignore that regulation, not in writing, only over the phone.

They say, ignore the section that states specifically what Subpart F does NOT apply to
And they state, only adhere to the section that states what Subpart does_apply to.

One of those later in Subpart F is the requirement that UAV operators have an operating certification.

Requirement for UAV operator’s certificate
(1) A person may operate a UAV for hire or reward only if the person
holds a UAV operator’s certificate that authorises the person to
operate the UAV.

So CASA uses that regulation from Subpart F, and tells people to ignore the one above it, 101.235.

Why ? you might ask them, no reason exists that they can give.
As a put it above the only reasons they had has died in the last ammendment to Aerial Work regulations.

If you are thinking, OK CASA can decide whatever it wants when it wants about the regulations.
Well not so, those regulations are L.A.W., Law, some of them where passed into law by the senate in Govt, some of them where refused by the senate.
CASA MUST act only under the authority of the LAW, same as the Police.

CASA are being a law unto themselves and ignoring the law enacated in Parliment.

Like a rogue cop who goes around telling people they have to stand on their head handcuffed and whistle dixie to pass a roadside sobriety test.

So, after a chat to my lawyer, he says to me.
When the law, that is the air safety regulations are ammended to support CASA verbal position, then take some notice of it.

He went on to say, if they dont like that and try to harrass you mis quoting the law as they have (in his view) you have a very strong case to recover damages from them in the case they instruct you to cease commerce and you abide.

So for now I ignore CASA and operate according to the law State law, local by-law and CASA aviation safety regulations.
And continue to read the latest regulations that to date have not stated otherwise.

If I had to give advice to FAA on what to do.

I would say copy the CASA 101 regs as is, they are good common sense regulations for REAL UAV.
But one HUGE consideration
They MUST ensure it contains the regulation 101.235 section 2 which states

(2) Nothing in this Subpart applies to the operation of a UAV if:

(a) while it is being operated, the person operating it keeps it in
sight; and
(b) it is operated in a way that complies with Subpart G.

They MUST ensure that no FAA reps attempt to pervert this regulation or try to tell people to ignore it, for any reasons.
As CASA reps have done.

If that requires the regs are re written to ensure that section of Subart F cannot be mistaken or excluded by anyone then do it.

That one section of Subpart F is what our whole industry swings on.

(a) while it is being operated, the person operating it keeps it in
sight

Remove that one regulation and we are all stuffed so it must be chiseled in stone if they are to use 101 regs.

Anyway thats is the best I can describe where we are at with the regs and how the FAA should view them and not overlook the importance of 101.235 to all of us.

If I note anymore changes at CASA Ill let you know.

Hope that helps.

Cheers.
Dave
06-29-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Well, that didn't take long

Just got the latest ammendment proposal off CASA.

http://rrp.casa.gov.au/development/miscprojects.asp#op

The guts of it are:

Civil Aviation Safety Regulation Part 101 came into effect on 1 July 2002. During the period of operation of the regulations, several anomalies and inconsistencies have become apparent in the application of the regulations.

The proposed review of Part 101 involving consultation with all stakeholders will seek to identify:

.elements of the legislation where interpretation has caused difficulties;
.elements of the legislation which are difficult to implement or enforce;
.inconsistencies between provisions of the legislation and with other legislation; and
.elements of the legislation which are overly complex.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now here is the Rub
If you think anyone with a Helicam will have a say or input to this, think again.

Quote:
The project will be managed through the Aviation Safety Compliance Division. A PIR project team is to be formed consisting of CASA specialists/practitioners, SCC representatives and stakeholder representation from Airservices Australia, Aerosonde Ltd, University of Sydney - School of Aerospace, Mechanical and Mechatronic Engineering, Helitech Pty Ltd.

>>>>>>>>

All of which are UAV entities
Helicams are simply not considered at all in the chages to regulations.

So now it looks like thing are about to get worse, meaning CASA removes 101.235 (2)
Or things will get better in which case the make 101.235(2) more explicit and allow it to continue.
Personally I think it's a turn for the worse so long as "Mal Talker" is involved.

Cheers
Dave
06-29-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Dave,

I guess I'll have to digest this myself. I want to try to understand what might be too restrictive for those who want to either do recreational helicam work, or especially those who want to do part time or supplemental income but also how a full time business will be affected.

Thanks for the help though. Now is the time for us to get input to the FAA and they asked for my input on the CASA rules. I need to find the time to digest them.

We're discussing this on the helicam,org to stay focused on the issues.

---
Rich
06-30-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

I get your point but as I said our regs issue is not straightforward, clear as mud in fact.

To use the regs as some example of how the FAA should act I can only make suggestions.

Of those important seems to me to be how a UAV is defined.

The mistake made in CASA regs is the UAV are not defined by any physical attributes.
In fact regs explicitly state there is no physical factors in what determines a UAV, it is soley based on the use of the craft.

Being, for commerce, it is a UAV, for priavtre use it is a Model Aircraft.
so that translates to
If its a balsa wood plank with a rubber band engine used to make any reward or for hire, it is to CASA regs, a UAV..
Defies logic in my view.

A UAV should be defined on whether it can be flown out of sight of the operator, meaning, anything flown by means of navigation aids and not simply watching it fly around as you would a "Model Aircraft"
This to me is just plain common sense, but it seems CASA is not blessed with much common sense.

To put a perspective on that Ill tell you my opinion on the matter of regulating based on commerce and not simply safety matters.

RPV / Helicams operated for commerce or recreation does not require anymore regulations than any operation of any Model Aircraft.
In the physical world the Helicam is a Model Aircraft in both its construction and its use.
It is flow in a manner that as far more subdued than any club recreational flying, no knife edges or walls of death and controlled chaos.
Helicam operators are not trying to out fly or impress their fellow club members.
For any club flier to state that Helicams need greater regulation than them is absolute hypocrisy and sanctimonious club crap not one of them have made any factual argument to support

So long as there is state, federal and local laws prohibting the endangerment of the public, there is no need for a bunch of unenforce limp wristed FAA or CASA regulations duplicating the same laws at the tax payer expense to satisfy a bunch of sanctimonious crusty old regulation mavens.

So depending on whether you agree with any of that, I dont know if my opinions on the regs is of any use to you or my suggestions on how to make them better.
If you cant think of some explicit safety issues not dealt with by common and criminal law already that shows clearly by some explicable concern then I would urge that you see that as simply:>>>
There is no need for Helicams to be regulated any further than they already are by existing Model Aircraft safety regulations the FAA has.

Rgds
Dave
06-30-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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