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Aerial Photography and Video > de-Interlace errors, anyone have a solution?
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Why do I see a lot of de-interlace errors (combing) when video with a lot of motion is produced with consumer video editors?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, see www.100fps.com it has a good explaination of it.

I know this isn't the 3D section, but when I see people post video's of fast moving heli's I can see two of every part of the heli at times due to de-interlace issues.

For example, if a heli is doing a fast piroette, you will see two tail booms during the piroette! Especially with DV, I would not expect this.

I would also not expect it in any up to date video editing system.


Does anyone have a reasonable solution to this?

---
Rich
05-11-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Rich:

That is just the nature of the beast! The video format in the USA is called NTSC (often referred to as "Never Twice the Same Color", but I digress). It is approximately 30 frames per second (for you purists, 29.97 to be exact). Each frame is composed of two fields, which consist of every other line (the "comb" effect you were talking about). So each field lasts about 1/60th of a second.

When shooting a still object, no big deal, both fields see the same thing and line up well. When shooting a moving object (or if the camera is moving, same end result) each field is recording something that is happening 1/60 of a second later than the last one, so they are all off a bit. When played back in the same order they were recorded on, and at the same speed, they look perfect. Your eye follows the fields just fine. Normally the human eye is considered to be able to differentiate about 48 items per second, so at 60 you appear to have perfectly smooth motion.

So if you are taking this back out to video, you will be fine. However, you said that you were having a problem with it when played back on a computer. Here's the rub - computer playback is not interlaced, like video, each frame is solid. So instead of seeing one field after another, you are seeing both fields together, which looks really bad.

Fixes: Depending on your editing system, you may have a few choices. One is to bring in every other field when you are importing the video to your computer. This gives you a half-size video vertically, so you just have to compress the video horizontally in half to match. Now edit it and play it back, and you will never have that problem. You have introduced another problem, though - you are cutting out half the information, so your playback will be the equivalent of 30 frames per second instead of 60 fields per second, and you will see a little jumping between frames. Usually not too objectionable, and better than the field problems, but there.

Another option is to bring in every field of the video and use them as separate frames, offsetting every other one by one line vertically so they will line up. Now you'll have to play it back at 60 frames per second or you will get a slo-motion effect (which can be very cool with heli shots) but not good for the entire video. If your editing system can speed up the video by 2 times, though, you've got it made. Of course, if it just takes it literally, you haven't accomplished anything more than bringing in every other field.

A better solution if your camera supports it is to have it record in frames instead of fields if you know you will be doing computer playback. My Canon XL-1 has this option, I'm not sure which others do.

So before you go blaming the editing system, remember that the editor is made to go back out to video, where it will probably be fine. If you plan on changing formats (from video playback to computer playback) you need to have a system geared for this, many are not.

Greg Pyros
Video and Visual Effects geek
www.pyros.com

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
05-11-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Hi Greg,

I'm glad you answered as most people aren't aware of this issue. It drives me nuts!

I wouldn't think that NTSC would be at play here. With a DV camera everything comes into the computer digitally. I guess I would have assumed that when they created the DV format, they would have had taken this into account. If the output wanted to be placed into NTSC (or PAL or any other format) then it could be converted at that step.

So I guess I'm dissapointed with the quality of the video's we're creating.

It seems there are some video post processing you can do to get rid of, or minimize this issue, I guess I'm surprized that most computer video editing software doesn't have some filtering to help, or codecs which will help.

I can see that the web site which I previously mentioned has some ideas, but I would expect microsoft's tool, or especially third party video editors to handle this correctly.

I'll have to do more work on this. It drives me nuts when I see it! I have a nice progressive scan DVD player on my home system so I don't have to deal with combing on movies which I watch on DVD at least.

Thanks for your thoughts!

---
Rich
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Rich:

Thanks!

But you may have missed part of the point - as far as the software is concerned, it IS handling it correctly - preparing it for playback on a normal tape or video DVD.

You acquired the images on an NTSC system, and the digital format was brought in exactly how you captured it, fields and all. No better, no worse. Warts and all.

Depending on what progressive scan system you have at home, most treat the video correctly - separate the fields and play it back at 60 frames per second, non-interlaced so you can watch a commercially made DVD correctly. What does your do?

Now if you are referring to movie film that has been transferred to tape, you get into a whole different can of worms. The film was shot at 24 frames per second, your system plays it back at 30 frames per second, so they have to add some fields in to make up the difference. This is called a 3:2 pulldown, and makes up for the speed difference, but it is pretty obvious on a big-screen TV!

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Greg,

I suppose I was looking for the software to create the format for the appropriate format... playback on a computer or web site and playback for a DVD could be two different things.

I'm aware of 3:2 pulldown, my home setup handles it well enough, sometimes a glitch occurs here and there, I can handle an occasional glitch ok, but watching a long sequence of combing drives me nuts!

I'm sure we're boring the rest of the 'video and photo' crowd here, so perhaps we should let this thread die.

I had wondered if people see this much in their videos and even noticed it or had a good solution.

---
Rich
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FCM
Elite Veteran
Location: Back in Blighty!

Your not boring me!

I have leant a lot reading your thread.

Never noticed the un-threading effect before when watching my DV footage on my computer. I do know that the resolution looks poor when compared with DVD or running DV tape through a TV. I always thought it was because of MS media player limitations (the new Media Player does a better job) but maybe I am seeing the un-threading of the fields you are talking about.

Of course, I am recording PAL which may give a different effect?

Paul.
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Peace Frog
Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

The combing effects you are seeing in these videos are from the high compression rates. Not NTSC. While you are correct NTSC is made of 2 individual fields, all video is as well, PAL and SECAM included.

Your XL-1 doesn't shoot true progressive full frames, but a hybrid, where it pulls the green frame each from the previous frame to "bridge the gap". The only mini dv cam that shoots true progressive (full frame, non interlaced) is the Panasonic DVX-100 and 100a. But even then, unless you exporting directly out to a film transfer, your editing system will incorporate the DVX-100's 3:2 pull down, which allows you to view it on a video monitor (NTSC, PAL, SECAM) . There are others out there, but they start at about $25k and go up to well over $150k. And they don't shoot consumer friendly mini-dv.

There are better codecs out there that won't fall apart quite as fast, but you're right, shooting helicopters at the speed is a lot of info to cram down a small pipe. When I compress for an internet file, I usually try to use Sorenson Codecs and wrap it in Quicktime, which is by far a more superior vidoe delivery.

Here's a link to my latest music vid.

http://www.wilsonedit.com/samples.html

It was shot on 35mm, but this file is from the DV offline session, so we are dealing with the same constraints. Of course the guys aren't moving as fast as a heli, but you can see it is definitely smoother than some vids.

BTW this is my editor's website... I was the director and own the production company.

Sorry for the long winded response, but finally something in my expertise has appeared!!! I've gleaned so much info off everyone else, I'm a heli newbie and looking to get into high end aerial photography.
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Peace Frog
Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

If you are getting that bad of banding, you may want to switch the field orders before you compress for DVD... it sounds like a setting problem, not a video problem now that you've explained it a bit better.
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

PeaceFrog:

Fun video!

My favorite method is to scan in 35mm film frame-for-frame to my Accom digital disk recorders and work on it there at 24fps. The hardware will add the 3:2 pulldown in realtime for playback without needing to have it on the disk so that after the effects are added I can then put in the pulldown on the final output. That way I don't have to remove it to add graphics and then put it back in again.

But, like you said, definitely not consumer equipment!

I would like to respectfully disagree on your comment, though, about the interlaced fields not causing the jumping problems and blaming it only on the compression - bring in a single frame with extremely fast movement so the fields are obvious and use the editing system to do a hold on it for a few seconds with no (or minimal) compression - you will still see the double image unless you de-interlace it first, and there is no compression to blame it on!

Learning every day,
Greg
Pyros Pictures, Inc.
www.pyros.com

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jeffscholl
Key Veteran
Location: Whitefish, MT

"Why do I see a lot of de-interlace errors (combing) when video with a lot of motion is produced with consumer video editors?"

Do you have an example?
I'm curious what was used for a final frame rate and codec.

On re-interlacing - Sage has made progress in this field :-)
http://www.dcdi-video.com/technolog...i-overview.html

Cheers,
Jeff
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Peace Frog
Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

Ohh I agree wholeheartedly that there is when you slow it down, no doubt, that's why when you do a pan you do it at a controlled speed to stop the stutter effect. But our eyes are adjusted to it.

I went to Italy for 3 weeks last year, and when I came back I could notice the 3:2 pulldown on US TV, it was because I had become accustomed to watching PAL.

I didn't do a great job explaining this, but if that's the case, stuff like auto racing on tv would be a jumbled mess. Now as far as helis go, maybe the pirhouettes are fast enough that they get captured 90 degrees opposed in consecutive fields... I haven't shot that type of stuff before... maybe what we are seeing is a vertical representation of the wagonwheel effect.

But the way he describes it, it sounds like bad settings. Like his fields are reversed.

And btw what the hell kinda stuff are you doing with an Accom?That's some high end stuff... Don't your graphics become interlaced then on the 3:2? Just curious, as my workflow has always been to add the graphics last, downstream. But then again, all my work is done for broadcast, I've never outputted to film, shot miles of it, but never go back out to it.
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Peace Frog
Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

Scratch that last comment... I just went to your website... very cool stuff... e-mail me off board, I have a question for you, maybe some possible work.


Chad

pfrogpro@aol.com
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Chad:

Consider it scratched!

Thanks for the kind words about my website, appreciated from an obvious pro like yourself!

I sent an email as requested.

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HeliCamSolutions
Senior Heliman
Location: San Antonio, TX

Greg and Chad,

Thank you for your additions to this thread. I enjoyed your discussions and I only wish there were more in depth discussion about the art of videography. Especially when I get to listen to professionals like yourselves.

Jody
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Peace Frog
Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

No problem man, I don't know jack about helis... except I want one that can shoot 35mm rock solid steady!!!

Any Q's you guys have about film, video, editing etc, feel free to shoot my way... I read this thread everyday, just don't have much to participate on.
05-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Chad:

Quote 
No problem man, I don't know jack about helis... except I want one that can shoot 35mm rock solid steady!!!


You don't want much, do you? Why don't you throw on a HiDef videotape recorder for good measure?


Jprather: My pleasure! I learned so much from people on RR both when I was starting to fly and when I started taking pictures from the air, it is a joy to be able give something back to the community!

As for the art of videography, head over to your local bookstore and check the film department - you'll see all sorts of things on the art.

Even a little book like the Focal Press "Grammer of the Edit" by Roy Thompson would be a good place to start learning the language!

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
05-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
daggit
Elite Veteran
Location: Waseca MN

I heard a swishing sound.... it wan't a heli, it was this topic whizzing right over my head
05-13-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HeliCamSolutions
Senior Heliman
Location: San Antonio, TX

Greg

You have an awesome website! I live in San Antonio and the home of Newtek and the Video Toaster. My profession is videography and I am like Chad in that I use a helicam as a tool in my profession. I do video for PGA golf tournaments and ProAm tournaments. I use the helicam to film aerial fly overs of golf courses and tee to green flyovers of the golf holes.

I know this is a heli forum and not a videography forum but as more and more heli pilots get into taking their DV camcorder for a ride on their heli they will need a lot of help and support. I wish Mark would seperate the video and photography into two sections. One for video and the other for stills.

Jody
05-13-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Peace Frog
Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

I actually don't have a helicam... yet.

My biz right now is strictly terrestial film and vid... mainly music vids, a few commercials and the occaisional documentary to keep me interested. I just see the value of this tool, properly config'd, with almost every production I do.
05-13-2004 Over year old.
 
 
HeliCamSolutions
Senior Heliman
Location: San Antonio, TX

And when you do get your helicam you will be successful. I think it is a lot easier to have a market for your product then get the tool (helicam).
I read so many threads where the heli pilot gets a mount, puts a camera on it, then tries to find a market for his/her services.

Jody
05-13-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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