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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Logo 10 and Kontronic FUN 600 -17 not enough head speed
 
 
Shagga
Senior Heliman
Location: Wiltshire, UK

Anybody know what has happened to the Kontronic FUN 600-18? It is not listed on their website - only the 600-17.

The Mikado website recommends the FUN 600-17 motor for 3D and not the FUN 600 -18 Why is this? I would have thought that the 600-18 would be more powerful than the 600-17.

What is the difference between the 2 motors. I already know that the 17 and 18 mean rpm per volt, so there is already 100 rpm per volt diffference. What about torque performance?

Guess which one I have - yes the 600-17. It was bought recently as the latest recommended combo for 3D flying. I cannot seem to get enough power/headspeed with it. I am using 14T pinion, JAZZ 55-6-18 ESC, 4s4p Lipo pack, NHP 50cm blades. The headspeed has been tached at about 1450-1500 rpm in Heli governor mode at 100% throttle. This is not enough for decent rolling and flipping 3D performance.

I will be trying the 15T pinion shortly which I hope will increase it towards the 1600 rpm stated on Mikado's web page. Is this going to solve the problem or should I take the motor back and demand a 600-18?

Also I am using a new Lipo pack on it's 2nd charge. Do I need to cycle a few times first before expecting too much power from it? i.e. let the cells balance out.
04-20-2004 Over year old.
 
 
kicker
Senior Heliman
Location: uk wiltshire

Add some Bling Bling.....
04-20-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Shagga
Senior Heliman
Location: Wiltshire, UK

Kontronic motors are not for high head speeds

So no one out there has an opinion?


Just had an email from Mikado. It states that Kontronic do not recommend the FUN 600-18 for 3D because of problems with it burning up ESCs and now they only recommend the FUN 600-17 motor.

Looks like there are covering their arses and trying to avoid too many warrranty claims.

If you need higher head speeds then Mikado say get a Hacker motor. All of you running the FUN 600-18 motor for 3D beware!

There you go then. I answered my own question.
04-21-2004 Over year old.
 
 
awe
Senior Heliman
Location: Dublin, CA

Hi Shagga,

Thank you for sharring this information. I am using the FUN 600-18, but since I am not good in heli yet, I haven't got a change to do 3D. For hovering and basic flying, it seems ok.

Hmm I think I have to change the motor before it burning up my ESC.

Sorry for not answering your questions since you seems way ahead of me.

Once again thanks for sharring the info.
04-21-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Dee436
Heliman
Location: Preston UK

I have 600-17 and 4s4p lipo
I use a 15 t pinion and it tachs around 1680 at 5 degrees pitch and 95% governor.
with standard paddles it flipped slowly and I had to chicken out of a few rolls, with the mikado 3D paddles it flips and rolls quit well.
I have now fitted a logo 20 flybar and vpaddles that should liven it up even more but not had chance to try it yet.

A better battery config would be a 5s3p, same duration due to lower current draw, about 30 some grams lighter and an extra 300 - 400 rpms available at the head
04-21-2004 Over year old.
 
 
damo
Heliman
Location: England

Hi Shagga

I have read a lot of posts like this, I have the Hacker B50 13L(1858rpm/v) and my head speed is in excess of 1800 rpms with 13 cell nicad, flies pretty dam good for electric power, now the £/$ is so good you can get them for about £100 and ebay the kontronic, I think you can use the jazz with the hacker if you reprogramm for 2 pole. With the lipos you should have good performance
04-22-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Shagga
Senior Heliman
Location: Wiltshire, UK

Better

Tried the 15T pinion yesterday. It is better.

I have managed to get around 1550-1650 headspeed in flight. Flip rate (back/fore) is very good, but roll rate is still slow even with KSJ paddles. Any ideas?

Seem to get quite a large variation in speed though with the speed govenor when under load. Maybe losing some torque or am I expecting too much from this little heli?

Also, the LiPo pack has settled and balanced out and starting to give better performance after 2nd charge.

Will try some more today.
04-23-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

Dee is right. The best way to beat the low RPM/RPM drop blues is with higher voltage. Going to a larger pinion gets the head speed up but sacrifices torque. Higher voltage increases RPM and torque.

Rob
04-23-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Reesy
Key Veteran
Location: In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

Shagga m'boy
Forget it .. it won't work
I "upgraded" my 600-18 to 600-17 following Germanic advice but it was hopeless. Tried 12, 13 cells then 4S4P... pinions from 13 to 16 gave 18 mins of rubbish.

2 Options
1. Flog the 4S4P pack and get 5S3P which should be stacks better
2. Flog BOTH and get something like a 600-15 or down to 600-13 and get 6S2P (Yes no typo's)
3. Get Mike to change the wind for you 25 euro ... look for Dana (Lost Horizon) who's running a 600-18 on 5S on logoheli forums for more.

I'm waiting for a Tango 45-09 Jazz 32 cell controller to go with my 8S2P

Ting Tong
.... ...... ...from Tooting
04-23-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Davo
Veteran
Location: London, UK

I've got a 600-15 and was thinking and have been told that 5s3p is a good idea. This would give 5*3.7*1500*(15/200)*0.8 = 1665rpm @ 80% with a 15t pinion. Your suggestion of a 6s2p pack would be lighter and could give a similar headspeed with a smaller pinion but flight time would be reduced due to only 2p, correct??? Hmmm...
04-23-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Reesy
Key Veteran
Location: In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

First off look for KC's spreadsheet on www.ezonemag.com (power comparison) the trick is to get the smallest pinion to largest spur (which in our case is a constant.)
What they all seem to go on is headspeed drop .. with the HV setups you could look at 100 -130 RPM whereas if you enter the number for a 600-17 on 4S4P it comes out about 350 (we call it count the blades round these parts.)

Gary Goodrum is the man for all this www.tppacks.com
There's a ton of reading but it will all gradually make sense.

The 6S2P 600-13 idea is very new .. main thing is you'd have about half the weight of the 13 cell pack BobJ was using on his logo and if you saw that go ....

Flight times will be lower maybe 12-14 mins instead of the incredibly boring 18 mins I was getting with my 600-17 4S4P

Ting Tong
.... ...... ...from Tooting
04-23-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Keith
Heliman
Location: Costa Mesa, CA

"What is the difference between the 2 motors. I already know that the 17 and 18 mean rpm per volt, so there is already 100 rpm per volt diffference. What about torque performance?"


the 17 and 18 does not mean rpm per volt, it is a reference to the number of winds in the motor. The number of winds has an inverse direct corolation to RPM/volt. The lower the number of winds, the higher the RPM/volt. In your example the 17 is a better choice than the 18, but you either need more Voltage or a lower # of winds.
04-23-2004 Over year old.
 
 
JoeR
Senior Heliman
Location: now in western NY state

Actually Keith with Kontronic the number does give you the approxiamate RPM/volt for the motor. Most manufacturers number their motors based on winds but Kontronic does not.

The listed KV of the 600-17 is 1620.
The listed KV of the 600-18 is 1800.

So the difference between the two is closer to 200 rpm/volt

The 600-18 does have more "power" /volt then the -17 at the expense of current.

I assume the -17 is the recommended motor over in Europe as they tend to fly at lower head speeds then in the US. At least this is what I have read on various forums.
04-24-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Reesy
Key Veteran
Location: In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180339

Peruse this little lot to begin .. look for Gary Goodrums posts on how to set values for a logo. The BIG problem is people trying to fit a square peg in a round hole

What worked for Nicads doesn't hold with the greater flexibility offered by LiPo's in various configurations

Ting Tong
.... ...... ...from Tooting
04-24-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Logo 10 and Kontronic FUN 600 -17 not enough head speed
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